Where it is appropriate to go SC on employees.

[KnitShoni]

Ree, I can understand your wanting to be level headed in this matter, but in this case, the question as to why smiley doesn't just leave Utah is relevant in the concept of just how absurd his hypocrisy is. All they're asking is what gives him the right to demand people change their lives, regardless of their financial situation, while he has outright refused to do the same, citing financial hardships as the exact reason why he won't.

True, moving is not easy or cheap. It creates a financial hardship. But so does quitting a job to avoid being treated like shit from some asshole who has a wardrum to beat. The main difference with your post and what you quoted is you're trying to make smiley see that he's in the wrong, while what you quoted are simply calling him out on it, most likely because they've tried your approach, failed, and are now just sick of putting up with it.

Exactly. He won't uproot his life to get away from the hatred he endures, but Target employees have to uproot theirs to get away from the hatred he wants to dump on them, or they're bad people?

[Hobbs]

From the Target website:

Business Councils
Our team members create and maintain these groups to help individuals develop their careers in an inclusive and enriching work environment. Four such councils are currently in place at Target:

African American Business Council
Asian Business Council
GLBT Business Council
Hispanic Business Council

Also, from my brother who's a former Target GSTL (Guest Services Team Lead) he told me that Target provides benefits for gay couples. I forget all of what he said, but I'm sure it's on the Target website.

[KnitShoni]

Actually, being level-headed is the best way to handle this type of situation.

It seems only Ree has even thought of how it would affect smiley, finanically and logistically, to move (let alone to another state!) and find another job. No matter how much he hates Utah, he is not in a position to just up and leave.

Has his hatred consumed him? It seems so. I don't see how making life hell for Target employees will accomplish anything. To me, refusing to shop there and trying to get everyone you know to do the same would be a lot more beneficial.

But it's a bad habbit of a lot of people, both on here and CS, to just leap to "You need to move!" "You need to quit your job!" and I'm glad when someone is able to step in and bring up the point of how a bunch of people online telling you what you need to do doesn't make it any easier or any cheaper, and doesn't solve the problem.

I don't think anyone is insinuating that a move this size would be easy or cheap. We know it will take time and resources. However, since he's living in a constant state of fear, in a place that wants him dead, would it not be worthwhile to invest that time and those resources to get the hell out of there?

[blas87]

Very good point, but hatred knows no boundaries. And because parts of one state are really liberal and accepting doesn't mean the entire state is.

[KnitShoni]

Very good point, but hatred knows no boundaries. And because parts of one state are really liberal and accepting doesn't mean the entire state is.

I know. I live in a suburb of Houston, which just elected its first gay mayor, in GOP controlled Texas.

[Hobbs]

Exactly. He won't uproot his life to get away from the hatred he endures, but Target employees have to uproot theirs to get away from the hatred he wants to dump on them, or they're bad people?

I don't think anyone is insinuating that a move this size would be easy or cheap. We know it will take time and resources. However, since he's living in a constant state of fear, in a place that wants him dead, would it not be worthwhile to invest that time and those resources to get the hell out of there?

QFT

If you (Smiley) have the time to openly harass innocent employees for no other reason than that their corporate leaders did something you detest, then you should have the time to figure out how to get out of the situation you live in.

Not to sound rude, but I have the impression that Smiley actually enjoys staying in Utah, if only to bemoan his own state of affairs and the "unfair" burden of being persecuted.

[KnitShoni]

QFT

If you (Smiley) have the time to openly harass innocent employees for no other reason than that their corporate leaders did something you detest, then you should have the time to figure out how to get out of the situation you live in.

Not to sound rude, but I have the impression that Smiley actually enjoys staying in Utah, if only to bemoan his own state of affairs and the "unfair" burden of being persecuted.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he enjoys it. No one enjoys the knowledge that walking down the street with the person you love can get you killed.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

I wouldn't say liked but it the state of persecution may have become something of a known and established quantity. People fear change, after all.

[the_std]

I'm not sure why this debate goes on, to be honest. Smiley's mindset regarding this subject reminds me of a quote from V For Vendetta.

Hate was all I knew. It built my world, imprisoned me, taught me how to eat, how to drink, how to breathe. I thought I'd die with all the hate in my veins.

Smiley, you are no longer dealing with this in a rational, logical way. Hate can become a symbiotic creature, convincing you that you need it as much as it needs you. It erases reason, it colours your views, it taints you. What you've gone through was not fair, of course, but you've let it take over you. And I believe that, if you ever do change (which will be exceedingly difficult, as it has already come to this point), it will not be because of us, a bunch of strange voices on the internet. In your posts, I see no acceptance of the points we make, of the counter-arguments we present. We are wrong, wrong, wrong without consideration of any other side.

I truly do hope you come through this with a balanced, equal perspective and the ability to see through the hate and the victim complex. No one should have to live the way you live. I hope you can come through this on your own and gain the capability to view both sides.

[daleduke17]

Please, Smiley, just shut up or do something that will actually bring positive attention to your cause. Right now you're no better than a SC. You won't get listened to in the way you're going. Deal with it.

Also, just fucking move. Go to somewhere more tolerant. Believe it or not, there are actually places (even where it is more affordable to live) that are tolerant of different beliefs, races and even sexual preferences. Right now you're just screaming for attention and it is getting old. Anytime there is anything even slightly against gays, you're on it with a negative light. Either grow up and deal with it like an adult or just shut up.

[guywithashovel]

Honestly, I think that wasting employees' time would be a bit uncalled for. If the employees are in a position where it is their job to explain company policy (like those who work on the customer service hotline), then it wouldn't be too bad as long as it was done tactfully. However, going into a store and pestering the staff would be crappy, even if you were outright rude about it. Yes, they'll get paid regardless of whether they are stocking shelves or listening to you rant, but they might end up taking heat from management if they don't get done the things they need done.

Again, and I really don't mean to harp on this, but Smiley, you're projecting a bad image on the LGBT community. I'm not saying you're a bad person, and I'm not trying to undermine the hate that gets spewn upon you. I have no doubt that you take a lot of abuse for being who you are. However, this type of approach probably ends up alientating a lot of people who may have supported you. Think about it. Over the past several years, support for gay marriage has steadily risen. That makes me suspect that there are a lot of people who are on the fence about these issues. Personally, I don't think that such an aggressive appraoch would make someone want to come off the fence and onto your side.

Sorry if that's preachy. I just think it's something to be considered.

[Hobbs]

But Shovel, if he does that, he won't have his White Whale to chase over and over again.

Dale, 100% agree with you.

[dendawg]

Going by your logic, Smiley, should all churchgoers be punished for the actions of Fred Phelps?

Should the people who work at BP gas stations be punished because of the actions of their corporate representatives?

Should Gamestop employees be punished because of the "Hot Coffee" easter egg in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas?

Of course not!

So why should Target employees be excoriated because of the actions of a few corporate higher-ups? They're only trying to earn money, just like you do at your job.

Let me make myself clear now that I don't care what homosexuals do in the privacy of their own homes, or even in public, but by carrying this kind of attitude towards Target employees who have nothing to do whatsoever with corporate practices, you IMHO are no better than the people who commit hate crimes against homosexuals.

That's right, I said it. You are exhibiting the exact same kind of intolerance that many homophobes exhibit towards other people who commit actions that they don't agree with.

Try to at least be rational if/when you reply to this post. Be better than the bigots, I dare you!

[Cassandra]

Please do not take this the wrong way. I only mean this as my opinion and humble advise, not as an attack on you, who you are, what you are. Nor am I trivializing the things that you have had to live through.

With that said, Smiley, have you sought help or tried to speak to a therapist that specializes in dealing with hate crimes and/or discrimination? I understand that being where you are it is difficult to find one that is not trying to "save" you or "make you straight". These are not the types I refer to. You seem to harbor such hatred for people who are against what you are. I cannot say that I understand your feelings because I am not you and cannot possibly get inside your head and heart. But as a bisexual female I understand the want to hate and need to take action. Yes, it is easier for me because society is more accepting of me, not to mention the fact that I found a man to be with and am married now. But, if I had ended up with a woman, I would have one hell of a fight on my hands with people.

I advocate for the rights of the GLBT community. I have donated to pro-gay organizations (due to economic hardships, it has been several years and I do not remember them off hand). I have written many, many letters to try to make sure that some horrible anti-gay law is not signed. I have made sure to spread the word on any kind of nasty thing that hits the news so that people will see what hatred of one group can do. I have stopped donating to, shopping at, or dealing with companies due to their anti-gay policies or dealings. I, however, would never take it out on the employees themselves. To say that you want all of the Target employees out of jobs and on the streets makes you sound just as bad as the group that "wants you dead".

I lost my job a month ago due to downsizing. I cannot tell you how hard it has been to just keep food in the fridge and the lights on. I have my husband's income and my unemployment, but it is barely enough. I do not wish this situation, or worse, on anyone. I have had to rely on family and friends to keep me fed in the past month. I just got my first unemployment check today and it's gone to bills and food. I can not and will not wish this kind of thing on anyone.

And I want to go back to the whole wanting you dead. I can understand taking these policies and beliefs personally, but this is a little much. They do not want you personally dead. Okay, so they advocate violence against people in our community. I get that. I don't like it either. But I do not feel that walking into a Target store will get me killed just because of my sexual orientation. Instead of keeping some poor person on the phone and yelling about the things the company is advocating, maybe you should take to the streets or start a letter writing campaign.

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe, just maybe the person you are berating is a fellow GLBT community member and is just too afraid of the yelling person on the phone to say anything? I know that if I were on the other end of the phone receiving this hateful spillage of the mouth, I would just hang up on you. Or if I was feeling a bit feisty, I might just tell you that I am indeed part of that community and if I was aware of the decision or not and let you have a piece of my mind regarding your wanting me to quit. Hell, I don't have any children yet, but if I did and you told me to quit or be held responsible for the deaths of countless gays, I'd tell you to fuck off and I need to feed my kids.

I feel for you and I feel for those at Target that you are...targeting. All the yelling, screaming, kicking, and tantrum throwing in the world will not get your voice heard in the proper manner by the proper people. The best way to direct your hatred of these people who advocate even more hatred for people like you is to direct it to them. Write letters, make civil phone calls to those who made the decisions and to those who created such bigoted, hateful rules/policies, go to the media in an anonymous way, etc. But, by all means, don't take it so damn personally and think about what can be done in a civil, legal, humane way to combat this kind of hatred.

The GBLT community needs people who are willing to bring themselves above all these groups and fight, not stoop down to these groups levels and grovel. I don't know you at all so I can not judge, but my words here have been based on your words on this board. Please do something civil and productive for our community and stop the blind hatred for all those who hate what we are. We can not help who and what we are and we all want acceptance.

My parents still don't know that I am bi and have had relationships with other women. My extended family may never know. I kept the secret because I wanted to be accepted and not fight. My husband is right there next to me helping me find ways to combat the hatred, and he is as heterosexual as you can get. My heart aches, I get upset, I get angry, and sometimes I feel pity for you every time I read one of your posts. I don't want to think badly of you based upon a few postings, but you make it hard to do that. Find some peace within yourself and bring that peace to the GBLT community.

[smileyeagle1021]

Also, just fucking move.

You ask me to throw away all my college credits (because the credits I have right now won't transfer out of state), start all over again, pay at least three times as much (on top of what I've already spent).
No, I'll turn 24 this year and I'm the oldest person in my family without a college degree... even knowing that I will spend at least two more years in the hate capital of the United States and knowing that most likely I will never recover, I CANNOT put off graduating college until I'm 28-30 (25-26 is going to be bad enough, somewhere my father is looking down on me weeping, my grandmother is looking down and weeping and my living relatives don't waste time weeping because they are actually making something of their lives).
Something that I don't think people understand, for me moving is going to cost a lot more than money... money isn't that much of an issue, money I can get, I can work two jobs, I can scrimp and save, I can beg and plead with family members to give me some. But moving would cost me something much more valuable than money, it's going to cost me the last three years of work going to college when I cross the state line and my college credits become useless. There are only two things that keep me sane, my fiance, and my work towards my degree. So, I'm sorry, but that is not a price that I am willing to pay.

As far as Tom Emmer's group denying their advocacy of murdering homosexuals... yeah, uh-huh, I believe that what you've said in the past was just for a laugh... obviously the current denial is how they felt all along and aren't just covering their asses and doing damage control.
You know, there is a famous Tom Emmer quote about how the average homosexual will molest something like 117 people... even if he doesn't advocate killing homosexuals, spouting stuff like that will get homosexuals attacked.

And as far as why target Target so heavily when they aren't the only ones who donated, this is true, but they are the ones who used their (supposed) support of LGBT issues as advertising... they lied to us, the took advantage of us, they took our money and used it to stab us in the back.