Why does the U.S.A...

[Red Panda]

Politicians are not in the military chain of command, apart from the POTUS. So if the military was involved, then they disobeyed the chain of command, which is granted to the heads of the emergency rescue group in the crisis zone. So either it's soldiers acting illegally, or a private group acting illegally. Take your pick.

Please point out where the orphanage was not suppose to be evacuated and somebody went rogue. Also point out any proof that it wasn't the US military. It doesn't specify in the article, but who else was evacuating people and bringing them to America? You just keep making things up instead of the obvious answer, a mistake was made because its hard to check out the identities of small children during life or death situations.

Yeah, taken away from the only home I've ever known, possibly from my family who might think I'm dead, and my choice becomes starting a new life with people that I don't even understand, let alone know, or going to an orphanage. That's assuming the publicity doesn't wane before that happens. When that happens, I'm screwed as the answer will be when questioned about me is "who?" Some life.

Considering these kids were IN AN ORPHANAGE the family question isn't all that relevant. Plus being brought to safety is still more important then being left to fend for yourself.

Still an "oops, we goofed, sorry" attempt at a fix that should never have happened in the first place. Let me reiterate that point to make sure you get it:

THEY WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THERE!

Regardless of their intentions, what they did was wrong, and has created much more problems that it solved.

Will the Great Karnak please show where nobody was suppose to rescue those in the orphanage? Thats not the problem, what happened was 12 kids who were not eligible to come to America got mixed up with the 1100 who were after the earthquake.

The mistake made was that it should have been handled by the right people. Sure, it's great that they were rescued. But it should have been done by the people who knew what they were doing instead of some cowboys with something to prove. And for a final repetition, regardless of their intentions, they went into an area they were not supposed to be in, and took the kids to another country instead of working with emergency crews to make sure they were accounted for. This is not the right way to do things!

If by cowboys you mean people who were suppose to be there then damn those cowboys that Haiti asked to come save their citizens. Who should have said "Fend for yourself Haiti, what if we make a mistake that effects the lives of nearly 13 orphans?"

You seem to be working on the assumption that everyone of those people had nowhere else to go, or would never be adopted there.

You seem to be working under the assumption that emergency disaster relief efforts have alot of time to plan and organize before they have to act.

I've also been around long enough, dealt with enough people, to realize that a vast majority of them are evil, and mostly care about their own image and money only. Most of those kids will be forgotten. America will get in trouble by /losing/ them in the system,but will likely attempt to back it up by stating that they are better here then there, and they are working on finding them.

I bet there are a whole room of American and Haitian goverment officials sitting around smoking cigars laughing at the foolish orphans who think they will help them. "Ha ha" they say "Let the orphans rot, this media attention does nothing but earn us more gold"

America is going to want to keep them, under the pretenst of being safer and better for them. (The fact that it'll look like a good will is just a /bonus/ for their image). Haiti doesn't have the resources, nor can they risk losing what support they have from America by ticking them off by badgering them for the kids who has parents back home repeatedly.

Thats exactly why the goverment is looking for Haitian relatives even though the orphanage says there are none and the kids are ready to be adopted. Its all part of an elaborate ruse to extract revenge on these orphans for no apparent reason. The complete compliance with Haiti in this matter is just to lull Haiti into a false sense of security so they can spring their trap at the last second.

Pretty sure that alot of those kids parents are still lost in the wreckage, and are persumed dead, just like their parents likely persume their own kids dead

.

Considering the kids were at an orphanage they probably already had dead parents.

I used it as an example in the sense that US put out children from another country into homes without bothering to see if hey, they had a parent somewhere else.

Actually the US thought he had one parent who was dead. Its not like relations with Cuba were good enough that Cuban officials would let America do an intense search through the coutnry for a dad.

When it's revealed that they did, they took him from home to a very HUGE blacklach of public hate. Then Cuba used it as an example of their own superiority. (Even though they were in the right, they still were basically taunting US with HA HA HA HA! We told your goverment what to do and they did it!)

Do you really belive that US is going to want that again? To deal with another goverment that may taunt they beat the giant? Even one that we're giving as much help to them as possible?

You have absolutly no idea about how politics works right? When a nation does a huge relif effort you typically don't gloat after they help return orphans to their parents, even if you have nothing to gain from it.

[daleduke17]

We should be 'saving the citizens' by helping them rebuild their infrastructure and provide basic necessities (food, water, shelter, clothing) to the displaced and homeless.

No.

We should be saving our citizens first.

[lordlundar]

You seem to be working under the assumption that emergency disaster relief efforts have alot of time to plan and organize before they have to act.

Shock of shocks, they do actually have time to plan for universal disaster response when there isn't a disaster they are responding to. Every major relief providing company even has departments specifically for rapid mobilization of disaster recovery and relief. As well, these plans are actually rehearsed repeatedly and consistently, in addition to particular specific situations which require particular skills. The universal disaster response plans and training are specifically so SHIT LIKE THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN! So no, they don't just sit around 9 to 5 until they get an alarm and then grab the nearest stuff that reads "emergency response kit" and rush off.

Finally, a fundamental rule put to any person authorized person in the zone is "See that person there? the one wearing the coat/vest/jacket that says 'Emergency Response Field Captain/Chief'? S/He's the boss and has final say. What s/he says goes. So if s/he doesn't give you a specific direction, YOU DON'T FUCKING DO IT!" This is to make sure that everyone is safe, secure and accounted for. When it gets ignored, as was in this case, then there's more problems in place.

You seem to like the idea of "rush in now and fix the details later" but the world works differently. Rushing in causes mistakes, and those mistakes add up. So instead of the immediate problem, people now have to fix the stack of mistakes that were caused by rushing in. If you understand anything of what I'm saying, I hope it's this: It is better to take a little bit of time to do it right than to rush in and screw it up.

[Red Panda]

So, when they are planning how many people are set to Haitian orphanage detail? After all, apparently they need to be able to identify all the children in an orphanage by sight and know which programs they are part of so that 1 % of them don't end up in the wrong place.

[lordlundar]

So, when they are planning how many people are set to Haitian orphanage detail? After all, apparently they need to be able to identify all the children in an orphanage by sight and know which programs they are part of so that 1 % of them don't end up in the wrong place.

Wait, what? When did I say that orphans were to be separated on site? Oh that's right:

I DIDN'T

I don't even know where you came up with the idea that there needs to be a separate division for orphans in the crisis zone.

Please for the love of God, understand this: proper organization will make sure that EVERYONE will be accounted for and helped. Got that? EVERYONE! This was not done in this case and now those kids are still trapped. Granted it's not by rubble, but they can't leave where they are now because it's a foreign land, with no knowledge about what's going to happen to them because no one can answer it because they don't know because they SCREWED UP!

[Fire_on_High]

Exactly, Panda. I'm always so shocked that people easily demonize the United States when something happens.

Sadly, American exceptionalism is mostly dead, and anyone who still has ideas along those lines has to hide them lest they be thought racist and barbaric.

"Life has to be faaaaaaair" PC will cause more continuing misery....

[Plaidman]

"Life has to be faaaaaaair" PC will cause more continuing misery....

Life needs to be fair for all in some terms.

Not in the sense that people that refuse to work should be given equal pay to those that work hard their whole lives to get degrees and do something in their lives.

But in the same sense, just because you save lives everyday doesn't give you a free pass to murder, rape, or even cut in line*

*unless of course, cutting in line to save someone life.

But in sense no person should be treated like garbage in the way they look/act (for most part)/ likes and dislikes/ religion/ lifestyle etc.

[Fire_on_High]

Life needs to be fair for all in some terms.

Not in the sense that people that refuse to work should be given equal pay to those that work hard their whole lives to get degrees and do something in their lives.

Not quite where I was going with that, actually. The kids will have a better life in America. Sure it's "fair" to ship em back to a third world craphole, but is it better for them?

Until the recent and frankly misguided agitation for everyone to be allowed to return to whatever godsforsakenly awful standard of living they could scrounge up on their own, kids were given better lives, fairness be damned. Was it unfair to the parents? I'm sure some thought so...but the wiser realized...their children would have lives better than they could dream of, now.

Native Americans are a good example...the early children who were raised into mainstream (at the time) society had every opportunity anyone else did. Some made good, others squandered it. Then the agitation to keep things "authentic" began, and quality of life backslid.

I see it as ridiculously tragic to have so much pointless suffering. Utterly and senselessly tragic.

[Plaidman]

I see it as ridiculously tragic to have so much pointless suffering. Utterly and senselessly tragic.

Is it suffering though, if they are happy where they are?

Happy where they live? Happy with their parents?

Sure, here they have a CHANCE of being happy and better life.

Assuming of course, they are adopted with a family that cares, and doesn't treat them like shit or abuse them. (There are plenty of stories of parents that adopt only to abuse them, mentally/physically/sexually. Sometimes it's caught right away, sometimes they never do get caught).

Assuming of course, they can learn english fast enough for people to stop screaming at them to go back to country. (Then again, lots of people do seem to like the French langage...).

Assuming of course, they can raise up to the challenge of school.
Get over whatever racism they may face.
Not get into gangs/drugs.

Yeah, America gives plenty of chances and oppratunity to make something of yourself.

But it gives just as much chance, if not more, to destroy yourself in the process. It's easier to do horrible things. America media and books make it look like heaven. Selling drugs, doing drugs, sex, it makes you alot of /friends/ real fast. They aren't true friends, but the urge to feel loved and liked makes you forget that they're only using you as much as you are using them for drugs.


Granted, of all those kids, maybe a tenth of them will do that. Likely alot more, but still.

Just because your in a better country, doesn't mean you automatically take advantage of all the good and never make mistakes.

[Hobbs]

Native Americans are a good example...the early children who were raised into mainstream (at the time) society had every opportunity anyone else did. Some made good, others squandered it. Then the agitation to keep things "authentic" began, and quality of life backslid.

Their children were forced from their families and sent to schools where they were forced to speak English and convert to Christianity.

"I love this land and the buffalo and will not part with it. I want you to understand well what I say. Write it on paper...I hear a great deal of good talk from the gentlemen the Great Father sends us, but they never do what they say. I don't want any of the medicine lodges (schools and churches) within the country. I want the children raised as I was.
I have heard you intend to settle us on a reservation near the mountains. I don't want to settle. I love to roam over the prairies. There I feel free and happy, but when we settle down we grow pale and die.
A long time ago this land belonged to our fathers, but when I go up to the river I see camps of soldiers on its banks. These soldiers cut down my timber, they kill my buffalo and when I see that, my heart feels like bursting."
-Santana, Kiowa Chief

[Fire_on_High]

Is it suffering though, if they are happy where they are?

Happy where they live? Happy with their parents?

Sure, here they have a CHANCE of being happy and better life.

*snip*

Just because your in a better country, doesn't mean you automatically take advantage of all the good and never make mistakes.

Well, I never said they'd automatically become virtuous, upstanding citizens the moment their foot hit American soil.

However...even if they go down the wrong path, being alive to say...deal drugs at 16, means they didn't die of a waterborne diarrheal illness at 3.

At the very least, food is plentiful and generally safe, water is clean, and medical treatment is readily available; there are standards for damn near everything in day to day life that make life considerably safer than it would be otherwise.

That alone is a very, very large advantage in life.

[Red Panda]

Wait, what? When did I say that orphans were to be separated on site? Oh that's right:

I DIDN'T

I don't even know where you came up with the idea that there needs to be a separate division for orphans in the crisis zone.

Please for the love of God, understand this: proper organization will make sure that EVERYONE will be accounted for and helped. Got that? EVERYONE! This was not done in this case and now those kids are still trapped. Granted it's not by rubble, but they can't leave where they are now because it's a foreign land, with no knowledge about what's going to happen to them because no one can answer it because they don't know because they SCREWED UP!

So please propose a solution? An earthquake has happened and 12 children out of 1100 are standing in the wrong line. How do we figure this out before taking them away. You seem to think the priority is to dig up the paperwork and make sure nobody goes the wrong direction but you also seem to think the US shouldn't help other countries at all and make facts up about the case as the suite your needs and ignore facts that hurt it. Since you're so dedicated to not going with reality you should just make yourself happier by creating a fantasy world were these kids weren't brought to America.

[lordlundar]

How do we figure this out before taking them away.

You just gave the answer right there you figure it out before you take them away. Why is this such a hard concept to understand?

You seem to think the priority is to dig up the paperwork and make sure nobody goes the wrong direction

No, first priority is to get them out of danger. I have no issues with that being done. Second priority is to make sure everyone is accounted for. Think about it. If no one knew that they were safe, it would require a second approach into that area, endangering more lives for no reason than because someone went "oops". It's a simple piece of bureaucracy that saves lives.

but you also seem to think the US shouldn't help other countries at all

Nice assumption, got proof I said that? Oh, that's right, once again, I didn't. I'm not saying nor ever said they shouldn't help, I'm saying be smart about it to avoid problems.

and make facts up about the case as the suite your needs and ignore facts that hurt it.

What did I ignore, huh? It seems to me that you think I should feel that America is the land of milk and honey, as that seems to be the only thing I'm not acknowledging. I admit I made some assumptions based on the information at hand, but let's be honest here, you are doing the exact same thing that you are accusing me of.

Since you're so dedicated to not going with reality you should just make yourself happier by creating a fantasy world were these kids weren't brought to America.

Not going with reality? Did you really just put that? What I have said about planning and making sure everyone is accounted for IS the reality. It's called being SMART and organized, instead of rushing head first into something without thinking. Movies, games and TV shows, you know, entertainment, advocates rushing in without thinking. Problem is that's not how things are done in real life. Oh wait, I stand corrected. The US has a track record of rushing into things without thinking. The war in Iraq, The levees in and around Louisiana, and the Vietnam War are such examples. And look at the results of those.

You know what? I'm done. Clearly trying to get you to understand common sense over blindly charging head first is a waste of time. All I ask is that you never have peoples lives or futures riding on having to make that decision.

[Red Panda]

You just gave the answer right there you figure it out before you take them away. Why is this such a hard concept to understand?

Sorry kids, we know the earthquake destroyed the structural integrity of the orphanage and the roof is collapsing, but we can't get you out yet. Our highest priority is to make sure that nobody goes to the wrong location.

No, first priority is to get them out of danger. I have no issues with that being done. Second priority is to make sure everyone is accounted for. Think about it. If no one knew that they were safe, it would require a second approach into that area, endangering more lives for no reason than because someone went "oops". It's a simple piece of bureaucracy that saves lives.

Which they did. I'm glad you are happy with the evacuation and how it happened.

Nice assumption, got proof I said that? Oh, that's right, once again, I didn't. I'm not saying nor ever said they shouldn't help, I'm saying be smart about it to avoid problems.

I suppose there are medications and such that make a person forgetful, so I'll help you out. On the third page you said twice in one post the the US is not suppose to be there.

What did I ignore, huh? It seems to me that you think I should feel that America is the land of milk and honey, as that seems to be the only thing I'm not acknowledging. I admit I made some assumptions based on the information at hand, but let's be honest here, you are doing the exact same thing that you are accusing me of.

You ignore the fact that the kids weren't kidnapped to be forced to be living in America forever. The kids will return to Haiti if relatives who want them are found. You've also ignored the authority the US had to conduct the operation.

Not going with reality? Did you really just put that? What I have said about planning and making sure everyone is accounted for IS the reality. It's called being SMART and organized, instead of rushing head first into something without thinking. Movies, games and TV shows, you know, entertainment, advocates rushing in without thinking. Problem is that's not how things are done in real life. Oh wait, I stand corrected. The US has a track record of rushing into things without thinking. The war in Iraq, The levees in and around Louisiana, and the Vietnam War are such examples. And look at the results of those.

You know what? I'm done. Clearly trying to get you to understand common sense over blindly charging head first is a waste of time. All I ask is that you never have peoples lives or futures riding on having to make that decision.

Who blindly rushed in? The emergency crews who had no idea a disaster was suppose to happen and managed to get 99% of those saved to the right place? You can plan for 20 years and not get results that good.

Of course I'm doubting your knowledge of world events if you think the problems with Vietnam, Iraq, and New Orleans had to do with rushing in and not what actually were the problems.

[Hobbs]

The US has a track record of rushing into things without thinking. The war in Iraq, The levees in and around Louisiana, and the Vietnam War are such examples.

I'll give you the War in Iraq, but the other two I have to call bullshit on. All of the relief efforts in Louisiana were conducted efficiently, for the most part-especially the efforts of the USCG and USN. As for the levees, that's not "rushing in without thinking..." that was a mistake of overreliance on an old system. We didn't rush into the Vietnam War either. We were pretty confident we would win. If it hadn't been for White House micro-management of the war early on, we would have won-quite decisively as well.

Here's how we "rushed in" to Haiti.

The disaster happened on Jan. 12. On Jan. 13, two USCG cutters arrived into Port-a-Prince to assess damage to the port. They were assisted by as USN destroyer. On the same day, two USAF Special Operations aircraft dropped supplies and Special Operations teams.

The next day, Jan. 14, the Special Operations personnel (Air Combat Controllers) had set up air traffic control operations to assist the relief effort.

The day after that, the USS Carl Vinson arrived and began to provide aid and support to the growing humanitarian mission.

On the 16th, the USNS Comfort arrived to provide medical supplies and personnel.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.