Unions!

[CancelMyService]

All I know about unions I learned about from either textbooks (about how they helped set standards for labor and such) and from people in Flint, Michigan. The latter is important because I got to hear about how the guys at the auto plants would take their sweet time during 'calibration' where they'd find out how much work you could do in a day, then when the management left they'd plow through the work assigned and hit the bar. They'd leave a person at the plant to watch for the boss, and should management show up unannounced it was their job to call all the local bars to get people rushing back in to work.

I don't know if that's a true story, but my friend wouldn't lie about that I don't think and it would explain why Flint's a near ghost town today.

Not to doubt your friend but that story sounds highly suspect to say the least. I don't see how such a plan could possibly work, unless the lookout guy had a 15 minute floorshow designed to distract the bosses. Flint's a near ghost town due to GM sending jobs overseas to save costs rather than paying solid wages, but I guess it's easier to blame the union since a whole generation is being taught to hate the very groups that brought them the way of life they and their parents enjoy.

[Boozy]

I don't know if that's a true story, but my friend wouldn't lie about that I don't think and it would explain why Flint's a near ghost town today.

The reason Flint is a ghost town today involves international free trade agreements, multi-national corporations, inflation and the national debt, and 8 years of Reaganomics. Its more complicated than a few guys drinking at a bar instead of working.

[blas87]

Many veteran employees where I work are the first ones to tell us young pups that Unions are not as great as everyone says they are.

One lady said to me, "Blas, if we had a Union, even more worthless employees would be protected from termination than already are."

(meaning employees who really need to be fired but aren't because of plush toy supervisors)

[Ree]

I have never worked a union job.

I think unions served a purpose at one time, but I honestly think that they have caused workers to price themselves out of a market. They have forced companies to take their production to countries where the minimum wage is much lower.

There was a time when there were major safety concerns and discrimination, and the unions helped to change all of that.

They got greedy, though.

Locally, we just had the Hershey plant close.
They are taking production to Mexico.

Only about 4 years ago, their union went on strike demanding more money and other concessions.

Now, those same people have no jobs.

Locally, we also had the shoe factory close. Production has been taken to Mexico. It's cheaper to import the shoes.
Again, only a couple of years before they closed, their union was on strike.

Those people are all out of jobs.

Consumers simply can't afford to keep paying those inflated prices to compensate for the wages and concessions that unions have forced onto the manufacturers.

I admit, I don't know a lot about the workings of the unions, and maybe I'm oversimplifying and generalizing, but seriously, what else am I supposed to conclude? Go ahead and say it's the companies who are greedy for taking their business to those places to save a buck, but to be honest, if it comes down to paying $60 for a pair of shoes produced in a union factory, and $20 for the same pair imported by that company, $40 looks pretty darn good in my pocket.

[Seshat]

I admit, I don't know a lot about the workings of the unions, and maybe I'm oversimplifying and generalizing, but seriously, what else am I supposed to conclude? Go ahead and say it's the companies who are greedy for taking their business to those places to save a buck, but to be honest, if it comes down to paying $60 for a pair of shoes produced in a union factory, and $20 for the same pair imported by that company, $40 looks pretty darn good in my pocket.

It's a really tricky one to me.

If the difference in price is because, in Elsewhereistan, the company can fire lazy workers - I'm happy to have the extra $40.

But if the difference is because, in Elsewhereistan, the company can run a company store, fire anyone who reports safety violations, and doesn't have to ventilate the room where the uppers are glued to the soles, that $40 is blood money and I don't want it.

Fair Trade certification helps a lot.

[AFPheonix]

People in countries that are typically outsourced for manufacturing will work for far less, but they also have smaller living expenses than we do here. The cost for land and buildings can also be much cheaper in other, less developed countries than in the US, too. I don't think outsourcing can be laid entirely at the feet of unions. There's a lot of economic factors at play including treaties between nations.

The reality is that we as an economy are moving away from manufacturing and into service-oriented jobs. There are more service professionals in the workforce than there ever has been in history. It may be a rocky transition but it will need to be made.

[Boozy]

The reality is that we as an economy are moving away from manufacturing and into service-oriented jobs. There are more service professionals in the workforce than there ever has been in history. It may be a rocky transition but it will need to be made.

The problem is that service economies are built like a house of cards. In order to produce wealth, you have to produce something physical. If all of America's stuff is being produced elsewhere, its wealth depends on its ability to manage and control smaller production economies of independent nations.

This has led to US involvement in wars and skirmishes throughout Central America and Southeast Asia.

Service economies are also dependent on oil for shipping (if nothing is made here, they need to ship the goods in). Which leads to US involvement in the Middle East.

It would be better for world peace and the environment if the US actually started producing their own goods again, and shipping in raw materials only if necessary.

[purplecat41877]

I'm in a union where I work. The main problem with the union I'm in is when coworkers call the union just because they didn't get their way on something.

For example, I had a former coworker threaten to call the union on me if I didn't transfer her calls to her register from then on. She even told me that I was nobody and that I was just running the front.

[Dreamstalker]

If you think unions are bad, then feel free to work sixty hour weeks on third-world level pay, with no paid holidays and no employee benefits, and no protection from unscrupulous employers.

Exactly. Of course the ex has said "those are bogus reasons"...ok, you can work 100 hours a week for no pay then. The last job he worked at (construction, non-union) fired him for a trumped-up reason, he could have rightfully pursued that but didn't.

I'm pro, a relative of mine helped start the coal miners' union. Not to say I think they're perfect (as the ex seems to think).

I always wonder what would have happened if I had still held my union membership when working at the game store...some of the stuff the guy got away with wasn't exactly kosher (wrt breaks, time clock, etc).

[BlaqueKatt]

Flint's a near ghost town due to GM sending jobs overseas to save costs rather than paying solid wages

GM workers were receiving $46.17($29.15 cash wages and $17.02 benefits) per hour-is that a "solid wage" or extortion?

This wage information is directly from General motors-the data comparing what the "big three"(Ford, GM and Chrysler)-UAW plant workers make compared to the US based plants for Honda, Nissan, and Toyota-non-union-there is a huge difference between them.

this article details the Tyson foods strike here in WI back in 2003(it failed BTW, after 11 months)

Some of the concessions Tyson Foods is demanding include a two-tier pay scale cutting hourly rates for new hires from $11.10 to $9(1) and a four-year pay freeze for current workers(2). They also want to enact a freeze on pension benefits and to eliminate them entirely for new hires(3). Health care premiums and deductibles would be increased, taking up to $4,600 a year out of families’ pockets(4). Tyson Foods also wants to eliminate a health care supplement for retirees(5), cutting sick leave and disability benefits by more than half(6), reducing vacation benefits by 33 percent(7) and eliminating severance protections(8). Currently, strikers are receiving $100 a month from the UFCW Local 538 strike fund, so they rely heavily on donations.

I'm going to address these one at a time:

1-this would not affect anyone currently working, only new hires
2-this would be done to bring current wages in line with other plants that have a lower payscale-due to location, size, etc.
3-every job I've ever worked you did not receive any kind of pension until you had worked for 1 to five years-why do new hires deserve a pension?
4-my insurance premiums for a family at the call center were $4800 per year, and that is before deductibles of $1000 per person.
5-why are people that no longer work for the company getting the company to pay for health care?
6-actual numbers are not given so this may or may not be reasonable-not enough info to judge.
7-how many jobs have severance pay if you get terminated?
8-for the 11 month strike workers made $1100-if they had been a new hire @ $9/hour @ 40 per week they lost out on $14,740-they gained nothing from the strike, they only hurt themselves.

this was not a strike done for any reason other than the greed of the workers, difference between the union's starting wage and the one the employer wanted is less than $5000 per year, at my $10 per hour job the state/feds take more than that away from me.

If you think unions are bad, then feel free to work sixty hour weeks on third-world level pay, with no paid holidays and no employee benefits, and no protection from unscrupulous employers.

Perfect example of the "black or white" fallacy

there are labor laws now-yes the unions fought for them, but they are law, if all unions went away tomorrow the laws would not.

That said, the unions do far more good than harm, and bagging them out while enjoying the benefits they fought hard to get for us is hypocrisy of the highest order.

President Bush signed the first law to raise federal minimum wage in over 12 years-he fought hard for that, he is viewed by many to have done nothing good while in office-is that hypocrisy?

nope check your definition of the word.


hypocrisy

noun
1. an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction
2. insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have

[Evandril]

Exactly. Of course the ex has said "those are bogus reasons"...ok, you can work 100 hours a week for no pay then. The last job he worked at (construction, non-union) fired him for a trumped-up reason, he could have rightfully pursued that but didn't.

I'm pro, a relative of mine helped start the coal miners' union. Not to say I think they're perfect (as the ex seems to think).

I always wonder what would have happened if I had still held my union membership when working at the game store...some of the stuff the guy got away with wasn't exactly kosher (wrt breaks, time clock, etc).

Look into the railways, if you want to see what a union can 'do' for a company...There is a reason that air travel won, and it wasn't because they were better...It was because they could actually make a *profit* and still pay their workers what they demanded. There might be some good unions out there, but I've not run across them, personally...Most seem more concerned about making money than the welfare of the company itself...Which tends to mean the company doesn't prosper much.

[fireheart17]

I'm in a union where I work. The main problem with the union I'm in is when coworkers call the union just because they didn't get their way on something.

For example, I had a former coworker threaten to call the union on me if I didn't transfer her calls to her register from then on. She even told me that I was nobody and that I was just running the front.

Three simple words for my situation: Enterprise. Bargaining. Agreement.

Basically, work isn't anti-union, but rather they work by the Enterprise bargaining agreement and at every induction, try and encourage people to join. The fees get taken out according to the hours you work a week...no hours, no fees. (It's usually about $5 for me). Of course, the managers may not always enforce it, at which point we can THEN call the union.

And yes, they have helped out quite a bit

[Mr Slugger]

Personally I think unions are a good thing, even though I've never worked in a union job, and I don't think every industry needs unions. I think there's jobs like miners, electricians, laborers, plumbers that need unions. Jobs that are sometimes either dangerous or don't stay in one place forever. The union helps in moving these people to their next "job"

Do I think you need a union for a job at payless shoes? No. However in the case of a company like walmart they have done things to make things better for their employees (not enough in my opinion) because while they're not so fearful of say one walmart unionizing I'm sure they fear say a whole state of walmart unionizing, and if they don't treat their employees with some respect that could happen. And closing stores that unionize can only go so far, they do lose money doing that at some point they'll piss off more than workers, and I think in canada the government went after walmart because they closed stores.

So like I said I think there's jobs that need unions, there's jobs I don't think you need a union for, but so long as those jobs fear unions coming in things should be good.

[AdminAssistant]

I used to be ambivalent towards unions, but now I'm rather grateful.

Simply put, I work for a University, but my paycheck comes from the State. My state is pretty much broke. It's possible that they may furlough state employees, including those who work at this university. However, the TA's for this State have a statewide union that makes sure that all of us are paid the same, regardless of institution. As the only unionized work force on campus, and since we are student workers, that makes a furlough somewhat unlikely.

[BlaqueKatt]

and we just lost another 850+ jobs due to unions-they're being sent to oklahoma-from a company that was set to add another 600 jobs-why?


Mercury Marine had asked for changes to a four-year contract it signed a year ago. The company had said workers would see no pay cuts under its proposal, but the union said workers were asked give up 2 percent pay raises in each of the last two years of the contract. The average hourly wage now is about $20, the union said. The proposal also called for lower wages for new hires and workers called back from layoffs, and changes in pension benefits that workers said would have made retirement unaffordable.

now they're closing down.



If Mercury Marine, a subsidiary of Lake Forest, Ill.-based Brunswick Corp., shuts down the Fond du Lac plant, it would mean an annual loss of $353 million in workers earnings and an additional 5,900 in lost jobs due to the impact on suppliers, government and business in the area, according to the Fond du Lac County Economic Development Corp.


so they cost the state a total of 7,350 jobs-why their wages are higher than my husband is getting with a bachelor's degree with nothing more than a high school education-but they wanted more-now they get nothing, and the state loses out as well-keep up the great work.