Excessive force used on deaf 'shoplifter'

[Tanasi]

From watching the video that was certainly a piss poor choke hold, heck the deaf guy didn't even loose consciousness. That guard needs some training on the proper use of choke holds to detain.

[Red Panda]

Never ever said he had a weapon did I?

Then you agree the deaf person was no threat and should not have been treated like one. I'm glad you have come around to the side of logic

[draggar]

Then you agree the deaf person was no threat and should not have been treated like one. I'm glad you have come around to the side of logic

You don't need a weapon to be considered a threat.

[Nyoibo]

Didn't realized that only trained martial artists could be guards.

Once again thank you for ignoring what I said and making up some jibberish crap in its place, I said the mojority of security guards have crap or no training at all, no mention of martial arts, I was talking about being able to stay aware of your surroundings and be aware of what else is going on rather than having tunnel vision and ignoring everything else.

[Canarr]

Right.... so not only did the clerk forget to remove every single tag in the clothes, every security guard there only /thought/ he might have stolen, whatever the cops saw must also be a group hallegenic on tape of seeing him stole, the judge must have also just made a mistake.

Your forgetting there was enough PROOF to warrent arresting him and putting him in jail for a trial, where'll he'll just get out because off this fucking publicity he's getting. "Oh, he was deaf! You can't arrest deaf people"

You're misunderstanding my point, entirely. I'm not debating whether the deaf guy is innocent or guilty in this case - frankly, I don't really give a crap. Whether or not some guy tried to steal some clothes in some shop somewhere in California is a lot like a sack of rice dropping in China: irrelevant. Besides, I'm sure there's some guy trying to steal some clothes in some shop somewhere in California right fricking now.

No, what I'm taking issue with is your claim that if he hadn't stolen, he wouldn't have gotten assaulted. That's just too far out there for me to get; how can you, on the one hand, complain endlessly that police does too little against shoplifters, but on the other hand have such complete faith that a couple of security guards would never ever mistakenly accuse and then assault an innocent guy? There's no margin for error in your world, no possibility for a mistake?

Yeah, getting arrested and having high bail set certainly indicates that there is at least some proof of his guilt in the matter; but that was obtained AFTER the assault shown on the video! So, consequently, it wasn't available to the security guards when they chose to assault and subdue him.

And, as for repeat offenders: why not ban them when they come back into your shop?

[Plaidman]

Do people make mistakes? Possibly. Rarely to that degree. I've experenced it myself as I've posted. I was shocked that the customer didn't press charges even though police said they would glady do so. Likely didn't due to Ed's age at the time.

As for it being /unavilable/? Hardly. Guards tend to be in both in camera room and out on the floor. That's why the carry walkie talkies, and know where the people are. So one would have followed the shoplifter while another stayed to watch the tape to see if he ether A: Paid for his stuff, as some people do put stuff on their character without paying for whatever reasons, only to pay for it before they leave, or B: Steal more and leave.


And ban them when they come back? Wherever you live most be awesome. I want to live there. To have someone be banned, and have the power to turn around and leave when you tell them that they can't be in my place anymore.

I mean, at my store it's quite the opposite, where they ether laugh or go whatever as they proceed to grab beer, candy, whatever they want and leave, hours before cops ever come, only to repeat again next day or so.

[Red Panda]

I think I've finally figured out why you are so enthusiastic about beating shoplifters. Its because people shoplift from your store and you are powerless to stop them so seeing somebody you decided is guilty get attacked from behind makes you feel better about not being able to stop anybody.

[Plaidman]

I think I've finally figured out why you are so enthusiastic about beating shoplifters. Its because people shoplift from your store and you are powerless to stop them so seeing somebody you decided is guilty get attacked from behind makes you feel better about not being able to stop anybody.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

yeah. Right. Like I never stopped them? There's a reason there were so many strikes against me when corp found out, and even more CD's who's parts of my shift somehow didn't get /recorded/.

I did stop thieves. ALOT.

A major reason I've been attacked by the bulk of them that just wanted that cheap beer.

Others may be willing to be too scared to do what's right, and that's fine.
I'm more then willing to die for my beliefs, unlike others. That includes not letting bullies have their way because everyone is to coward to stand up to them, and thieves who'll just come back when I DIDN"T beat them in the head with a bat.

You hurt a thief, they don't come back.

[Red Panda]

If making up stories about how tough you are makes you feel better go right on ahead and do it. I hope it makes you feel better about yourself.

[Plaidman]

Never said I was tough. Not one bit. I've nearly died the bulk of them. I can't even lift a hundred pounds. I hate fighting.

Doesn't mean I won't stand up for what I belive in.

You stand up in your belief that all fat people stink and are scum.
You stand up in your belief that your allowed to be naked whenever wherever.

I stand up against thieves and scum that pick on others.

We all have different beliefs. Nether are better then the other in the grand scene of things.
Guard choking a shoplifter sits just fine with me, regardless of how hard it was. I bet you a billion dollars that thief won't ever think about shoplifting at that store again.

[linguist]

I bet you a billion dollars that thief won't ever think about shoplifting at that store again.

assuming he was shoplifting at the store this time. he hasn't been found guilty yet, and it's the courts' place and their place only to decide his guilt.

whatever happened to 100% proof?

[Plaidman]

Proof was how it was paid out.

The cops would have arrested the guards for choking him, if they didn't see him shoplifting on the videos.

[linguist]

not necessarily, if the guard can spin a good story to justify his actions. and where are you getting the idea that there's video? there may be, but i've not seen any mention of it in any article, and not all stores have surveillance video. in any case, an arrest is never 100% proof of guilt. once more, you've convinced yourself of guilt without the 100% proof you claim to require, but it's not your place to decide guilt.

[Plaidman]

Right. So why would store press charges, without proof.

Courts would rarely take I saw him do this, because otherwise it would be full of people claiming someone stole this or that, just to get money or because they didn't like the guy.

What store doesn't have cameras now-a-days anyways?

They had proof he did it, or the cops would have arrested the guard for assualt charges. That's pretty simple to understand.

Cops rarely, if ever, arrest a shoplifter without proof. If there is no proof, they let them go right then and there.

[Canarr]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

I did stop thieves. ALOT.

A major reason I've been attacked by the bulk of them that just wanted that cheap beer.

Others may be willing to be too scared to do what's right, and that's fine.
I'm more then willing to die for my beliefs, unlike others. That includes not letting bullies have their way because everyone is to coward to stand up to them, and thieves who'll just come back when I DIDN"T beat them in the head with a bat.

Okay, I get principles. I get standing up to bullies, and keeping them from hurting innocents. A girl being harassed by some drunk asshole? Kids being bullied by bigger kids? Yeah, I'm with you there: stop them. Violently, if necessary.

(Short excursion on German law, since it differs from American law in this area: "Notwehr" (our version of self-defense) covers any *reasonable* amount of force used in order to stop a *current* and *unlawful* attack on yourself, others, or your/their property. Key words in asterisks: reasonable, current and unlawful. You can't shoot a kid to stop him from keying your car, you can't continue to hit someone who's no longer attacking you, and you can't beat up a cop trying to lawfully arrest you. Yes, you're allowed a preemptive strike against someone if an attack is *clearly* imminent. You don't have to wait for the other guy to hit first, but you cannot use unreasonable force. What's reasonable, of course, depends on the situation.)

But: risking bodily harm to yourself in order to keep someone from stealing cheap beer from your store? Unless it's your very own store, and thus your merchandise, why run the risk? If it's a corporate store, then there's insurance anyway, and probably protocol against apprehending shoplifters, too. If you're a cashier (are you?) being paid minimum wage (I guess), then why would you feel the compulsion to throw yourself into harm's way for a meager few dollars' worth of merchandise? That's a security guard's job, not yours.

It's not "the right thing to do", nor is it heroic. It's just really, really stupid.