Schools giving students unexcused absences...

[AdminAssistant]

Admin, since you deal with performing arts, I'm not sure how testing works out for you...

Well, the class I TA is a pen and paper class, so no biggie, except for the performances that they have to see. ("But that's Homecoming!" "And?")

When I was taking theatre classes, however, they all had a VERY strict attendance policy. And, if you missed a class, you were not allowed to participate in a show that night. You HAVE to be there for an acting class except in extreme circumstances.

Stuff that a kid learns in elementary school is not hard to make up, compared to stuff that a student misses in a college class -- and compared to what a child might miss if they don't go with their parents on a trip somewhere.

Depends on the child and depends on the trip. Let's say a kid misses a week of school to go to the Smithsonian. Okay, that's a great experience for any child. But then, what about the kid who misses a week to go to Disney World? What experience is worth missing school for?

Some kids might also have great difficulty getting caught back up to their classmates, and then the teacher has to take extra time out of their schedule to help. I mean, if the parents are so laissez-faire about their child's education that they would pull them out of school for a trip - AND LIE ABOUT IT - why would they bother making sure the kid made up what they missed? If taking vacations whenever you feel like it means that much to you, home school your kid. Otherwise, realize that sacrifices have to be made for you child's education. I mean, your reply made it seem as if multiplication and spelling are unimportant, something that couldn't be further from the truth.

[Rageaholic]

On one hand, an elementary school should let parents keep kids home if they're sick with just a call...to a very limited amount. However, I call BS on not being able to plan vacations around the school year. My folks would have never let me miss school to go see a relative, go on a trip, or anything like that (unless it was through the school). We did see family - on weekends, on Spring Break, during the summer. If Mom and Dad wanted to go someplace during school, we stayed with a neighbor. And went to school. Shocking.

Yes because no parents should ever take their kids on vacations out of fear that they might miss school.

Yeah yeah, they can plan it for the summer or during breaks, but that may not always be possible. Just because the school heads don't see it as a good reason to miss doesn't mean it's not a good reason to miss.

In college, missing class is a little different. You only have class a couple of times a week and you cover a LOT more making it harder to keep up. But it also depends on the kind of class. I had classes where there was rigid rules on cutting class. Then I had teachers with the attitude, "I don't take attendance. If you miss class, that's your fault and you are only hurting your own grade." Which makes sense. I mean you are paying thousands of dollars to be there and the teacher is getting paid whether you show up or not. My stats teacher freshman year said if we wanted to only show up for the tests and the final and miss every lecture, we were welcome to do it if we thought we could pass. I still went but after our last test, I had the highest grade in the class and he graded on the bell curve. I skipped the last month which was just review, focused on other classes, and got an A in the class.

That's how it should be in college too. If students who frequently missed class fail, it's their own fault. But some classes I've taken were just the instructor going over what you read. If I could learn the same stuff in the textbook, why do I need to go to class? I shouldn't have points taken away for not coming to class if I have proven that I know the stuff anyway.

Okay, so you don't learn much from visiting Mt. Rushmore. Is learning something the only worthy thing one can do? Isn't there such a thing as enrichment through experience, and seeing once-in-a-lifetime places or events? Oh noes, Little Johnny is going to miss out on the multiplication table of 5 and how to spell "grandmother" because his parents took him to see a great sight of North America. Better give him a bunch of unexcused absences and threaten to fail him.

Exactly. You can only get so much out of the traditional style of learning anyway. Does everything have to be about learning and productivity? Can't you just enjoy time with your family? So you miss a week of school. Big frickin deal. They aren't the end all or be all.

[jedimaster91]

Depends on the child and depends on the trip. Let's say a kid misses a week of school to go to the Smithsonian. Okay, that's a great experience for any child. But then, what about the kid who misses a week to go to Disney World? What experience is worth missing school for?

I skipped school for Disney. Twice, actually and once was during finals week because of snow days earlier in the year. My teachers were very accomodating and let me take finals early. Although, if my grades hadn't been up to snuff, my mom would have kept me home. She was scary like that.

Honestly, I dislike blanket policies like this. Don't get me wrong, education is important and parents should hold their kids to high academic standards. But every child is an individual and some can handle an interruption better than others. I danced from the time I was 5 until my second year of college (minus two years for soccer) and every year I missed school for something dance related at least once. During my high school years, not only was I out a day for Nutcracker school performances, but also several days for regional dance conferences. All with excuse notes on official letterhead from the dance school. Of course, I was lucky enough to go to a highschool with a large performing arts program, so they were more lenient than some other schools. And my grades had to stay up or my mom would pull me out.

If my kid is running a fever or vomitting, they're not going anywhere. If the bug lasts longer than a day or two, then I'll think about going to the doctor. It's pointless to waste a co-pay on a 24-hr bug.

[MaggieTheCat]

Depends on the child and depends on the trip. Let's say a kid misses a week of school to go to the Smithsonian. Okay, that's a great experience for any child. But then, what about the kid who misses a week to go to Disney World? What experience is worth missing school for?

I think that is entirely up to the parent to decide and not the teacher/school district. If a parent says, "I've saved up my money and vacation time for years to be able to afford a trip for my family, and the only time my spouse, my brother, his wife, and my sister in law can all get off work at the same time is in October, so we're going to Disney World in October!" Then that should be their decision. A school should not be able to veto that decision and say the kid is going to get a bunch of unexcused absences when a parent is giving plenty of notice for the absence. If another parent says that going to Disney World is not a priority and that school is more important, fine, great, that is their decision. They can either find another time to take the trip, or not take it at all, or whatever they want to. But it should be their decision, not the school's.

Some kids might also have great difficulty getting caught back up to their classmates, and then the teacher has to take extra time out of their schedule to help. I mean, if the parents are so laissez-faire about their child's education that they would pull them out of school for a trip - AND LIE ABOUT IT - why would they bother making sure the kid made up what they missed? If taking vacations whenever you feel like it means that much to you, home school your kid.

I agree that lying about it is not the best approach. But just because a parent will pull their student out of school for a few days to go on a trip, does not mean that the parent doesn't care about their child's education! Like I said, my parents pulled me many times to go on trips and they always made sure I did homework on those trips, and that I was caught up to where I was supposed to be by the time I went back to school. They talked with my teachers and found out what I would be missing and made sure to go over all of it with me while we were gone.

Otherwise, realize that sacrifices have to be made for you child's education. I mean, your reply made it seem as if multiplication and spelling are unimportant, something that couldn't be further from the truth.

I think compared to some things, missing a couple of days of a second grade class is lower priority. I never said they were not important. My point is that the learning curve in second grade is pretty low -- most kids are not going to fall behind so far that they can't catch up if they miss a few days of class. Multiplication and spelling are not difficult skills to master. I never said they were unimportant, but missing a couple of days of time tables and spelling words are things that parents can easily go over with a child at home (or even while on a trip.)

Exactly. You can only get so much out of the traditional style of learning anyway. Does everything have to be about learning and productivity? Can't you just enjoy time with your family? So you miss a week of school. Big frickin deal. They aren't the end all or be all.

This sums up my thoughts pretty much exactly.

[linguist]

Does everything have to be about learning and productivity?

everything? no. when you are supposed to be in school? yes.

Can't you just enjoy time with your family?

sure you can. evenings, weekends, spring break, summer break, fall break, winter break. the breaks alone add up to almost 4 months of no school. what's wrong with planning vacation for those times?

So you miss a week of school. Big frickin deal. They aren't the end all or be all.

it is a big frickin deal if the student is required by law to be there, or the school is required by law to maintain a certain level of attendance, or law spells out exactly how many days can be missed before a student is considered to not have adequately completed the school year. in many places, all of these are the case. it's very easy to fall behind to the point that it's very difficult to catch up, especially in faster-paced schools.

when i was in fourth grade i was hospitalized for a week and a half with severe pneumonia. this would obviously be an excused absence. however, when i came back i was so far behind i went from an a student to an f student. on top of this my immune system was shot so i kept getting sick and missing classes, pushing me further behind. we were told i missed so much i'd have to repeat fourth grade, but my parents appealed to the school board. they said i could advance if and only if i demonstrated mastery of everything we covered during the year by taking a test over all materials at the end of the year. my parents hired a tutor and i spent every spare minute studying, and ultimately i did pass and did advance to fifth grade. however, i was lucky, and disciplined. not all students would be that committed, nor would their parents have the resources to provide them with the kind of help i had.

[Rageaholic]

I think that is entirely up to the parent to decide and not the teacher/school district. If a parent says, "I've saved up my money and vacation time for years to be able to afford a trip for my family, and the only time my spouse, my brother, his wife, and my sister in law can all get off work at the same time is in October, so we're going to Disney World in October!" Then that should be their decision. A school should not be able to veto that decision and say the kid is going to get a bunch of unexcused absences when a parent is giving plenty of notice for the absence. If another parent says that going to Disney World is not a priority and that school is more important, fine, great, that is their decision. They can either find another time to take the trip, or not take it at all, or whatever they want to. But it should be their decision, not the school's.

Exactly, I hate how the public schools try to make decisions for the parents. As if their ways are the best for everyone, one size fits all. Children should be allowed to have lives outside of school, even if that includes *gasp* missing a few days! As long as the teachers and all them are getting paid, why do they care if little Jimmy's parents decide to take him to Disney World instead of going to school that week. As long as they know ahead of time, it's none of their damn business.

it is a big frickin deal if the student is required by law to be there, or the school is required by law to maintain a certain level of attendance, or law spells out exactly how many days can be missed before a student is considered to not have adequately completed the school year. in many places, all of these are the case. it's very easy to fall behind to the point that it's very difficult to catch up, especially in faster-paced schools.

Then the laws are stupid and need to change. As stupid as it is for parents and students to get in trouble for "unexcused absenses", it's even stupider for the schools to. The only valid reason I can see for the schools penalizing parents and students is if they will get in trouble for it. And like I said, if they get in trouble for not controlling the parents, that's just balls. So whoever it is at the top who's trying to tell others what to do needs to piss off.

[AdminAssistant]

As long as the teachers and all them are getting paid, why do they care if little Jimmy's parents decide to take him to Disney World instead of going to school that week. As long as they know ahead of time, it's none of their damn business.

Because, increasingly, a teacher's pay depends on Little Jimmy's aptitude in the materials that are supposed to be taught. As linguist said, every student gets ~ 4 months off of school and that's plenty of time for vacations, trips, etc.

[the_std]

As linguist said, every student gets ~ 4 months off of school and that's plenty of time for vacations, trips, etc.

And, as has already been pointed out, that means ALL parents are expected to take their vacation in those four months. That puts added strain on their employers, as everyone is trying to take vacations at the same time, which means that not everyone will be allowed to take vacation at that time. Plus the fact that life often does not wait until we're allowed to take vacation time. Sometimes things happen while school is supposed to be going on.

I know where you're coming from, AA. I've taught. I know how frustrating it can be when students skip classes, I know how disrespectful it seems. But I also know that they're not going to put their entire lives on hold just because I happen to be teaching their class. And, like Maggie, I think that different education levels should have different expectations. Elective schooling (anything past high school) should be the strictest of all - if you're choosing to be there, you should also be choosing to put your full focus to it or dealing with the consequences of taking time off. But the memories I have of vacations, trips, family, friends, even the experiences I had when I should have been in school, have helped shape me and educate me along with school. I think other children should have those reasonable chances, too.

[MaggieTheCat]

One of the main reasons my SIL wants to come in February, when there are no vacations from school, is because Wicked, the musical, is going to be in our city for about a week and a half in Feb. She is a huge Wizard of Oz fan and I think she would really, really enjoy Wicked, and I'm sure her son would too. Once it moves on, who knows when it will be in our city again, if ever? And there is NO chance that it will come much closer to her than here; she lives in a podunk town in the middle of nowhere, with no big cities around for several hundred miles. This is a great opportunity for her and her son, and I hope she can find a way to come see it without her son having any repercussions

[fumblebee]

This is why I've had to start asking students who miss for funerals to bring me a clipping of the obit or one of the memorial things from the funeral.

Well that would have left me SOL on Tuesday for my Aunt's funeral. First day back to class and I had to miss it because of a family funeral. ok fine, I didn't HAVE to miss it- but I'm sorry- my family comes first. There were no "memorial cards" and we didn't place an obit in the paper because we didn't want funeral crashers attending. (sad - but seems to be happening more and more - people coming to funerals to load up on the food afterward. Had it happen at my uncle's funeral so we no longer post the info - just call everyone)

On the other hand, what's to stop someone from just randomly clipping out a death notice from the paper and bringing it in. You can't go by last name so there is really little proof that the person is any relation to the dead in question.


I also remember my parents pulling us from class the Friday before March Break because the flights were significantly (as in hundreds of dollars) cheaper and it was the only family holiday we took all year. So yeah, they would pull us a day early - but if they hadn't done that - we wouldn't be able to afford to go away at all. My family wasn't the only one to do this - some kids had left on the Wednesday or Thursday to drive to their march break destination. As long as the school had a note, they were fine with it.

[AdminAssistant]

One of the main reasons my SIL wants to come in February, when there are no vacations from school, is because Wicked, the musical, is going to be in our city for about a week and a half in Feb. She is a huge Wizard of Oz fan and I think she would really, really enjoy Wicked, and I'm sure her son would too. Once it moves on, who knows when it will be in our city again, if ever? And there is NO chance that it will come much closer to her than here; she lives in a podunk town in the middle of nowhere, with no big cities around for several hundred miles. This is a great opportunity for her and her son, and I hope she can find a way to come see it without her son having any repercussions

*sigh*

I mean, I understand. Rest assured, Wicked will be coming back. That cash cow ain't going off Broadway or Broadway tours anytime soon. And I will step off that soapbox right meow.

[joe hx]

In Rutland, if your child swears during class, you-the parent or guardian-have to pay a fine. It's something like ten dollars per offense.

I'm not sure how that works or what happens to the child if the parent doesn't pay up. But I'm sure it works out in the minds of whoever cooked it up during the two hour *makes pot smoking gesture* teacher's conference.

Did the school have an official list of the offending words? In my jr and sr high schools one teacher might give you detention for saying a certain word and another teacher might use the word all the time.

when i was in fourth grade i was hospitalized for a week and a half with severe pneumonia. this would obviously be an excused absence. however, when i came back i was so far behind i went from an a student to an f student. on top of this my immune system was shot so i kept getting sick and missing classes, pushing me further behind.

The second half of my senior year I was in and out of the hospital. I graduated anyways. The school pretty much had my teachers let me slide by.

[Peppergirl]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, so I'm going to:

It may be a situation like we see so often on CS where a few bad apples ruin things for the rest of us. Just one example would be return policies and such, because of scammers. Many companies have cracked down and have started applying strict, sweeping rules to everything because so many people who ABUSE THE SYSTEM have ruined it for the rest of us.

Does this make sense? I know when I was in school there was one kid whose mom would keep him home if he looked at her cross-eyed. I honestly don't know how he got through school. Perhaps these rules and the blanket application of them are to punish these types of parents. Unfortunately, to apply these rules fairly and not be accused of 'favoritism', they extend to everyone..and therefore a reasonable parent who might wanna take their kid somewhere one time during the school year is gonna pay the price.

[Boozy]

But the memories I have of vacations, trips, family, friends, even the experiences I had when I should have been in school, have helped shape me and educate me along with school. I think other children should have those reasonable chances, too.

I agree with this 100%.

It's not until you finish all your schooling that you finally realize the full value of all your life experiences.

My parents would usually pull us out of school for vacations. My dad's a farmer; he couldn't take vacation during the summer when his kids are home, because he's got too much to do. We'd travel in the winter.

Sometimes we'd take spontaneous day trips to museums if it was raining.

Spending a day exploring the world one-on-one with a parent is often far more valuable for a child than sitting in an overcrowded classroom making collages out of old National Geopgraphics.

[AdminAssistant]

My dad's a farmer; he couldn't take vacation during the summer when his kids are home, because he's got too much to do. We'd travel in the winter.

My Dad was also a farmer, and on the years that we could afford vacations, we would do them in early summer. After planting, but before he needed to start worrying about chopping, watering, etc. If we would be gone for a while, he might ask a neighbor to keep an eye on his crop (and he'd do the same for the neighbor). Dad was the main reason we never vacationed during the school year. Hell, he almost didn't let me miss a day of college to attend my grandmother's funeral. If Dad WAS too busy, we went on vacation without him. (During the winter he worked factory jobs, so travelling was out of the question then.)

As a matter of fact....all the farmers in the area that I grew up in vacation during the summer, Christmas break, or Spring Break if it's early enough (usually is, we don't start planting until mid-April). Maybe it's the difference in the school year or the growing season in Canadialandia...or maybe your Dad had livestock (we didn't). But farming never caused me or my friends to need to vacation during the school year.

I guess I'm just old-fashioned, or maybe my folks were too strict. But pulling kids out of school "just cause" does. not. make. sense. I didn't miss out. We went on day trips, went to museums, went on a handful of vacations, saw family. If I did lack certain cultural experiences, it wasn't because of school. It was because of location and money.

And Peppergirl is right. If school's have a too lenient attendance policy, then some parents will take advantage of it. Schools that have their funding tied to student performance have a strong prerogative to keep those kiddies in class.