Schools giving students unexcused absences...

[Hobbs]

You seem to be saying that the only way to learn is in school. Learning consists of more than what you learn in school. Vacations and such can help broaden your education that you will never receive sitting in a class room.

I could certainly learn about my job by going to Minot or somewhere and get hands on knowledge, but if I miss PT or a Leadership Lab or a class...then that goes against my attendance. I miss more than I'm allowed "expanding my mind" I could get drummed out of the military. There's also a lesson to be learned about responsibility, doing things when you have to, duty to others aside from your selfish wants. But of course, those lessons don't matter, because they don't offer instant gratification, correct?

[HYHYBT]

Anyway...what does it really matter if the excuse is excused or unexcused? Seriously, it's a trivial matter. All you're doing is harassing an already-harassed corps of professionals.

Well, it depends on what the difference means at that school. If it's like mine was, where the difference comes in only when you have too many absences in a semester, it's not a big deal. On the other hand, I believe some schools do not allow work, including tests, from unexcused days to be made up.

[AdminAssistant]

Aaannnnd, here's my first whiny ass student of the semester. Going to a wedding next week and will be missing class on Wednesday and Friday....but the absences will be excused right?

Okay, what kind of wedding takes up half a week? Seriously. He should only be gone that long if he's seriously involved in the wedding, and if that's the case, then the couple should've taken schedules into account. No, I'm not excusing the absence because your friend or family member wanted to get married in September (?).

ETA: When a parent signs up for a public school, they give up some of their rights to their child's educational experience. When others are paying for it, you have to play by their rules or suffer the consequences.

Honestly, the attitude annoys me, but it doesn't really affect me either way. Just be sure to warn your child that although they missed K-12 classes for trips to the museum, Disney World, or Grandpa Jim's, that in college they'll get a mean, nasty professor like me who isn't going to coddle them or, frankly, give a damn.

[Greenday]

I could certainly learn about my job by going to Minot or somewhere and get hands on knowledge, but if I miss PT or a Leadership Lab or a class...then that goes against my attendance. I miss more than I'm allowed "expanding my mind" I could get drummed out of the military. There's also a lesson to be learned about responsibility, doing things when you have to, duty to others aside from your selfish wants. But of course, those lessons don't matter, because they don't offer instant gratification, correct?

Are you implying military school/basic are the same as public high school?

[Hobbs]

Are you implying military school/basic are the same as public high school?

No. But then, I neither attend military school or have attended basic. I am implying that, in the future (just as Admin has stated) people won't give a damn why they missed, and the consequences will be dire. You're setting up children for failure by making them ignore the seriousness of attendance.

[Boozy]

ETA: When a parent signs up for a public school, they give up some of their rights to their child's educational experience. When others are paying for it, you have to play by their rules or suffer the consequences.

Why?

There's no reason why a publicly-funded school has to operate like that.

My property taxes fund the local school system, and I don't particularly care about my neighbour's kid's attendance record. I'm somewhat invested in his education, so I care about how he's doing in general (children are the future, blah blah blah), but I still don't see any proof that a child's attendance record is always tied to their educational success.

[MaggieTheCat]

Aaannnnd, here's my first whiny ass student of the semester. Going to a wedding next week and will be missing class on Wednesday and Friday....but the absences will be excused right?

Okay, what kind of wedding takes up half a week? Seriously. He should only be gone that long if he's seriously involved in the wedding, and if that's the case, then the couple should've taken schedules into account. No, I'm not excusing the absence because your friend or family member wanted to get married in September (?).

Okay, I have a couple of questions/comments.

First, is there something wrong with getting married in September? Aside from the fact that it interferes with your class schedule.

Second, I agree that a wedding being more than one day is a little extreme. But, what if the wedding itself is on Thursday, and the student in question has to travel to get there, thus being gone on Wednesday and Friday? Maybe it really is only one day but due to distance, it gets spread out for this person.

Regarding scheduling conflicts, as several of us have already pointed out, just because something works (or doesn't work) for one person doesn't mean that it's going to work (or not work) for everyone. Maybe the couple getting married did check a bunch of peoples' schedules, and out of the 50 people they really wanted at the wedding, 43 said that the end of September was going to be best for them. So the other 7 -- whom your student is one of -- either has to miss the wedding, or not miss it but risk it interfering with whatever they have going on at the time (classes, in this case.) Maybe this was the only time that the couple could both get off work (or whatever) for enough time to actually have a wedding/honeymoon.

Do you allow work to be made up for "unexcused" absences?

I'm not even suggesting that you should change your rules -- it's your class, you should run it however you feel is best. But I also think your rules are very strict, more strict even than most places of business, since most employees get this thing called vacation. If this student were working, and had gone to his boss with the same situation and requested vacation time, he likely would be able to get the time off, excused, assuming he gave adequate notice and his boss wasn't a jerk about granting vacation time.

[Lace Neil Singer]

What sort of school calendar did you all have that had days that were "goof off days" in every class?

This too puzzled me a bit. O_o

Then again, I remember always having those days off anyway; they were generally called "Baker Days" (now, they are called "Teacher Training Days) and the students got to have an extra holiday day (they were generally at the beginning or end of term).

That, to me, seems a hell of a lot more sensible than having a "goof off" day where the kids just watch movies and mess around. But then, I don't really know much about the American school system, just the English one, which is why I haven't commented on this topic til now; I don't want someone pointing a finger.

[Arcade Man D]

But I also think your rules are very strict, more strict even than most places of business, since most employees get this thing called vacation. If this student were working, and had gone to his boss with the same situation and requested vacation time, he likely would be able to get the time off, excused, assuming he gave adequate notice and his boss wasn't a jerk about granting vacation time.

I have never been in a college class that allowed "vacation time", and I've done 3 years now (1.5 of which were a waste due to my own screwups). If you don't show up on the day your take-home quiz is due, or the day of a test, unless it was an emergency (and no, a wedding is not an emergency), you eat the zero. However, most professors have a "replace the lowest with the final exam" or "drop the lowest quiz" or a similar policy, which would relieve one such zero, or a day you just didn't do well on the test.

[MaggieTheCat]

A lot of teachers, AA included, say that they enforce such strict attendance rules because (at least in part) they are preparing students for when they will eventually get a job and go to work. But, as I pointed out, most places of business give vacation time, or at the very least allow you to switch your days off so that you can go to events like weddings when they come up. I know most schools don't allow "vacation" time but I don't see why professors don't allow work to be made up when it's missed for times like these, or why a test can't be taken the day before if notice is given that a student will be gone. I honestly don't understand it because employers do allow time to be taken off and work that's missed to be "made up" (do it before you leave or ask someone to switch shifts with you), so maybe someone could explain to me why school attendance policies seem more strict than work.

[Greenday]

No. But then, I neither attend military school or have attended basic. I am implying that, in the future (just as Admin has stated) people won't give a damn why they missed, and the consequences will be dire. You're setting up children for failure by making them ignore the seriousness of attendance.

You're right, they won't give a damn. They'll sign your leave slip, you get your days off, and life continues on without penalty.

And people know there is a difference between just not going to school and just not showing up at your job. Only one has serious consequences.

[AdminAssistant]

Do you allow work to be made up for "unexcused" absences?

Luckily this student is not missing a test, however he will miss on the day that students pick what groups they'll be in for their group projects. He'll be put in the same group as whoever else doesn't show up for whatever reason.

If a student is going to miss a test..well, it depends. First, we have to come up with a different version of the test, so that they can't get answers from classmates or vice versa. Then we either have them take the test before they leave or as soon as they get back. And if they take it after they get back, it's either more difficult or I grade it much more strictly (because they've had extra time to study).

Also, since I TA currently, in these cases I defer to the professor and he makes the decision.

However, if we try to accommodate the varying schedules of 150 students without penalty, then we're doing a hell of a lot of extra work that, frankly, I don't get paid enough for. If we allow a student to make up a test they miss due to something like a wedding (or a trip to see cousin Billy's piano recital or going to see Grandpa Jim or...etc.) it is an act of generosity on our part.

I'm dreading mid-terms, because they're on the day before Fall Break in October. *sigh* Who knows how many students will have "emergencies" just because they wanted to drive out to BF, Kansas on Wednesday morning instead of Thursday morning. So, they have to take the test the next week which screws up my grading.

[Greenday]

If a student is going to miss a test..well, it depends. First, we have to come up with a different version of the test, so that they can't get answers from classmates or vice versa.

Some of my teachers would give A and B tests just so that wouldn't happen. I often suspect she just printed out copies of one test then just put A and B on alternating copies.

[Hobbs]

You're right, they won't give a damn. They'll sign your leave slip, you get your days off, and life continues on without penalty.

And people know there is a difference between just not going to school and just not showing up at your job. Only one has serious consequences.

Who's this "they" you're referring to? I know quite a few professors, especially upper-division professors, who use attendance as part of the grade. It may not be much, but it's the difference between an 'A' and a 'B'. I find it annoying the students who only show up for tests. If I were that professor, I'd fail the lot of them.

Both have serious consequences. You're set up for failure if you think otherwise.

[Sage Blackthorn]

Ok, I've finished reading this ENTIRE thread and I actually see a few different arguments going on.

1. Are laws/school policies regarding attendance/absences fair?

2. Should parents have the right to pull their own children out of school for any reason?

I think that while these two issues are related, it might be helpful to discuss them as seperate issues.

1. As for whether the policies are fair or not. Well, if they are applied to all students equally, if the students and parents are told of the policies before hand, then I'd said yes, they are fair. If the parents choose to violate those policies knowingly, then they can accept the consequences. OR they can work to change those policies that they disagree with. OR they can find alternative ways to educate their children that will satisfy the local, state, and/or Federal requirements for schooling......OR they can work on changing those requirements.

2. This is more of a matter of opinion. Personally, I think that a parent should have the ability, the right as it were, to take their children out of school for any reason they see fit.....and again, they must accept the consquences of their actions. If the parent deems it more important that their child attend their grandmother's funeral than to be in class to learn what is being taught. I think that is their choice to make until their child reaches the age of consent and is free to choose for themselves if they'd rather attend the funeral, or if it's more important to them to take a test than to be with family. In either case, I find the issue more about the freedom to choose.

To quote one of my favorite authors:

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
Robert A. Heinlein

I've noticed other issues that this thread has raised in my mind. Perhaps it would be advantageous to all if this thread was split into one thread for each of these related issues.