Judge jails a lawyer for not reciting the Pledge of Allegance

[Racket_Man]

http://www.aolnews.com/discuss/refus...sPageUrlAnchor

Judge orders (all in the court room I assume from the piece) to recite the American Pledge of Allegance. a lawyer refuses. Judge finds lawyer in comtempt of court and sends lawyer off to the local county jail

Full order of comtempt here:
http://nmisscommentor.com/wp-content...empt-order.pdf

Lawyer is released 5 hours later but still refuses to do a "mandatory" pledge or "flag salute"

The "right" to refuse to recite the Pledge of Allegance is contained in a USSC ruling from 1943 reversing a decision from 1940

1943 decision description
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj.../barnette.html

1940 decision description
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minersv...ict_v._Gobitis

Side Note: one thing I did NOT know about was the Flag Salute (orginally called the Bellamy Salute (description here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute) used prior to my birth in 1960. the "salute" was a straight right armed palm up (and down) gesture described as very very similar to the Nazi "Heil Hitler" salute we are all familiar with. the "salute" was removed from the flag code in 1942.

you can see why the flag salute was controvercial in this picture and yes it looks like a bunch of Hiler Youth from the 1930's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pledge_salue.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bellamy_salute_1.jpg

[Hobbs]

Well, it is contempt of court. Also, just a personal opinion, but I hate people who love the benefits of their country, but get uppity when it comes to being patriotic. It reminds me of that little boy who wouldn't recite the pledge a year or so ago. I'd never let my kids get away with that. Too many people in my family have bled and died so that I can live the life I do.

[Greenday]

Ugh, I hate this attitude that you have to recite the pledge and if you don't, you aren't American or whatever. You know who does blind allegiance to their countries? The commies! The autocracies!

Sounds like the judge was just on a power trip and it's scary that he got that far without knowing the law.

[Hobbs]

The commies! The autocracies!

Every nation has those who show blind obedience to their nation. Reciting the pledge, however, is not the same as blind obedience. The pledge is there as a reminder, "I am an American, there are ideals America is founded on. I support my country." If you don't support your country, then you're NOT patriotic. It's hard to be a patriot when you don't give a damn about it.

I am an American, fighting in the forces that defend my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give up my life in their defense.

[HYHYBT]

It's not logically contempt of court (as an offense) to refuse to obey an order the judge has no right to give.

[Anthony K. S.]

What could you possibly hope to accomplish by ordering somebody to take a loyalty oath?

If your heart isn't behind the pledge you're making, then they're just words. They don't mean anything.

It's just a waste of time . . . and a waste of resources to jail somebody for refusing to do something that wouldn't have meant anything, anyway.


In any case . . .

"Danny [Lampley] is very principled, and he didn't think he should be forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance, so he didn't do it."

I could be wrong, of course, but it sounds to me like Mr. Lampley didn't actually have a problem with saying the Pledge of Allegiance. What he objected to was the fact that he was being ordered to say it.

That would be a point of contention for a lot of people.

I, for one, have no problem at all with saying the Pledge of Allegiance, but I, too, would object to being forced to say it.

Allegiance isn't something that can or should be coerced. It can, and should, only be given freely by an individual.

That said . . . I have to admit that I probably wouldn't have had the courage to risk a contempt charge from a judge over the issue. I admire Mr. Lampley for being so committed to his principles.

Ugh, I hate this attitude that you have to recite the pledge and if you don't, you aren't American or whatever. You know who does blind allegiance to their countries? The commies! The autocracies!

I agree.

Over the years, I have found myself asking people this question more times than I care to think about :

"Do you think that the Founding Fathers created the First Amendment to protect people's rights to say how great a country the United States is?"

Some people need to get a clue. The First Amendment wasn't created to protect patriotism. What government would ever try to stop people from saying how wonderful the nation is?

It was created to protect people's rights to trash the country, to mock and malign elected officials, and to condemn the government's actions and policies. That was the speech that the Founding Fathers wanted to ensure would never be suppressed by the U.S. government.

Refusing to blindly give allegiance to the United States isn't anti-American.

Condemning that refusal isn't, either. That speech is protected by the First Amendment, too.

But trying to suppress speech you don't agree with, or punish people who engage in it . . . That certainly is. The judge is the one who was being anti-American, not the attorney.

I hate people who love the benefits of their country, but get uppity when it comes to being patriotic.

You mean like the benefit of free speech, like being able to feel free to condemn the government and the country if you wish to do so?

Of course, you have the right of free speech, too, Hobbs. And if you wish to condemn the refusal to say the Pledge of Allegiance, you are perfectly entitled to do so.

The problem in this case, though, was that a person was being punished by a government official for engaging in a form of expression that the official just didn't like.

Too many people in my family have bled and died so that I can live the life I do.

I would think, then, that you, of all people, would be incensed by this. One of the fundamental rights that your family members have fought and died for is being abridged.

This reminds me of a story I once heard about two American war veterans talking about the issue of flag burning, and whether it should be banned.

One veteran said, "I didn't fight a war so that people could burn the flag."

The other replied, "You most certainly did!"

[AdminAssistant]

I'd never let my kids get away with that.

If my child refused to recite the Pledge, especially on the basis of "One Nation, Under God," I'd be thrilled because it would show that he/she was thinking for themselves instead of blindly repeating a pledge. Nationalism has no place in the modern world.

[Greenday]

Saying a pledge to a flag doesn't make you patriotic.

Not saying a pledge to a flag doesn't make you unpatriotic.

[Hobbs]

Saying a pledge to a flag doesn't make you patriotic.

Not saying a pledge to a flag doesn't make you unpatriotic.

Being contemptible towards your country doesn't make you patriotic either.

Admin, it seems you completely ignored my justifications.

[Rapscallion]

Out of interest, just how often do you have to recite the pledge over there? Does it wear off after a while or something?

Rapscallion

[AdminAssistant]

Out of interest, just how often do you have to recite the pledge over there? Does it wear off after a while or something?

Rapscallion

As kids, every single effin' day at Assembly. As adults, not so much.

[Racket_Man]

As kids, every single effin' day at Assembly. As adults, not so much.

in grade school (during the 60's and 70's) it was REQUIRED as the first thing in the morning to do the "pledge"

as an teenager/adult I could not tell you the last time.

I, as an American, should NOT have to be forced to speak nor sign a "loyality" pledge under ordinary circumstances. This is NOT Nazi Germany nor Communist Russia. This is NOT the McCarthy era of the late 40's and early 50's where there were supposedly Communists behind EVERY door, book, TV show or movie.

I am sorry but the pics I linked to in my OP, if a caption were NOT present, one would be hard pressed NOT to believe the pics WERE from the Nazi or Communist era.

I really do not appreciate the uber-patriotic persons or groups that use the phrase "If you are not with us, you are against us or un-American or unpatriotic" or "If you do not blindly follow us, you are the enemy" (this paticular phrase can be applied to other situations besides "patriotism" ie. religion, politics, social groups, race, culture, etc.)

[Hobbs]

<snip>

In that same vein, I hate people who don't stand during the Star-Spangled Banner. I've actually done the following:

"It is requested that you stand for the singing of the national anthem and remain standing for the posting of the colors!"

Imagine that in my best command voice. I literally saw people on the other side of the stadium rise from their seats.

I think this picture says a lot about the kind of society we are now.

[Rapscallion]

As kids, every single effin' day at Assembly. As adults, not so much.

Ah, good old fashioned indoctrination.

Land of the free, my arse.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

In that same vein, I hate people who don't stand during the Star-Spangled Banner. I've actually done the following:

"It is requested that you stand for the singing of the national anthem and remain standing for the posting of the colors!"

Imagine that in my best command voice. I literally saw people on the other side of the stadium rise from their seats.

I think this picture says a lot about the kind of society we are now.

There's nothing wrong with asking someone to stand and respect it if physically able, but it's another thing to force them pledge their allegiance to a flag.