Judge jails a lawyer for not reciting the Pledge of Allegance

[Anthony K. S.]

I literally saw people on the other side of the stadium rise from their seats.

I wouldn't read too much into that, if I were you.

Many people will instinctively respond when they are asked to stand up, regardless of the context. It's practically a reflex.

A "commanding voice" or the fact that it was for the national anthem has nothing to do with it.

It's like when you pick up an object and hold it out to somebody. A lot of people will automatically take it from you, without even thinking about it.

I once read a commentary from a web cartoonist who said she got a kick out of opening something like a CD or DVD, and casually holding the plastic wrap out to whoever she happened to be talking to at the time.

Most of the time, they would take it from her without thinking . . . and then wonder why they did that.

[Hobbs]

I wouldn't read too much into that, if I were you.



A "commanding voice" or the fact that it was for the national anthem has nothing to do with it.

It wasn't a "command-ing" voice. IT was a "command" voice. ie. the one I use when issuing orders.

[Ladeeda]

It wasn't a "command-ing" voice. IT was a "command" voice. ie. the one I use when issuing orders.

That's semantics.

I don't agree with being forced to pledge allegiance either. Including in school. I wouldn't blame any highschooler or younger for refusing to do so for whatever reason.

As things stand, I wouldn't pledge allegiance if I had the opportunity to. Not because I'm unpatriotic. I just refuse to promise faithfulness to a big piece o' fabric.

[Hobbs]

That's semantics.

No it's not. I was clearly responding to Anthony's inability to recognize the difference, mocking it by calling it a "commanding" voice.

[Ladeeda]

No it's not. I was clearly responding to Anthony's inability to recognize the difference, mocking it by calling it a "commanding" voice.

Yeah, I don't really see the difference.

[Jack]

Out of interest, just how often do you have to recite the pledge over there? Does it wear off after a while or something?

Rapscallion

As stated earlier, it is "required" for public school students. I say "required" in quotes because it's really more of a request, though many schools and individual teachers seem to think it's a requirement, despite the long-standing West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette in which SCONUS ruled that a student should not be compelled to salute and recite the Pledge:

We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.

Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest. Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions. These laws must, to be consistent with the First Amendment, permit the widest toleration of conflicting viewpoints consistent with a society of free men.

Despite this case which is older than I am, and despite my own efforts in educating the administration, teachers, and students at my high school (beginning with posting a short summary and interpretation of WVSBoE v. Barnette all over the walls, and ending with an argument in the Vice Principal's office in which he smugly recited state law at me and threatened to get me into more trouble than I cared for at the time if I kept it up), many people there thought that students could be compelled to salute and recite the Pledge, to the extent that one teacher once took a student into the hallway and screamed at him when he refused to do so (this is what prompted my little campaign).

I had never taken issue with saluting and reciting before -- never gave it much thought, just another of the day's rituals -- but incidents like that made me oppose it on principle. After a few conflicts, though, I decided to simply stand with no salute and no recitation, for two reasons: 1) It turned out to be enough to get people off my back; 2) Despite my adolescent sense of rebellion and dislike for the way the USA seemed to be going (I was in high school until around 2007), the obvious lack of true "liberty and justice for all", and my [a]religious convictions contrary to the Pledge, I still had some respect for the ideal of the country.

It seemed that people thought it did wear off, as we apparently needed re-indoctrinating every school day.

As for what I think others should do, I'm unsure. I'm inclined to say they should stand to show some degree of respect, but that's simply me echoing my own sentiments and forcing that would defeat any sincerity just as well as forcing a salute and recitation does. Having not yet formed any other opinion I'll fall back on individual rights and say that each person ought to be able to exhibit as much or as little respect and pomp as they think is due of them.

[Anthony K. S.]

Yeah, I don't really see the difference.

Me, neither.

For the record, the reason I used the phrase "commanding voice" instead of "command voice" is because I honestly thought that that was what Hobbs said.

I didn't actually look closely enough at his post to see that he said "command" instead of "commanding."

Had I, though, it wouldn't have mattered, because it would never have occurred to me that there was a difference, or that anybody would ever think that there was. Nor would it have ever occurred to me that anybody would view the phrase "commanding voice" as a form of mockery.

In any case, I still stand by what I said. The fact that people stood up in response to Hobbs's command could, in my view, be easily attributed to many people's reflexive reaction to being instructed to stand, rather than the context of the instruction.

One time, when I was a student in college, I was in the audience of a meeting of our Student Government Assembly. I asked to address the Assembly, regarding three students (at a different college in our university system) who had recently died.

I requested that everybody present at the meeting stand up for a moment of silence for the three students. They all did so, without hesitation.

And mind you, I have a very meek voice.

[AdminAssistant]

Yeah, as a rule, people are sheep and will do whatever they're told/whatever everyone else is doing. Especially if they're in a group. It's very rare that I have to use my 'stage' voice with my students...although it scares the hell out of 'em when I do. Projecting skillz are awesome, yo.

[Boozy]

It's like when you pick up an object and hold it out to somebody. A lot of people will automatically take it from you, without even thinking about it.

My brother does that to me whenever he has a piece of garbage and there are no trash cans around. I fall for it every time.

That's also how those religious tracts get put into so many people's hands.

[Ginger Tea]

That's also how those religious tracts get put into so many people's hands.

I once said when confronted with a flyer of some description "oh that reminds me, I need more toilet paper" and it was withdrawn before I could take it.

I have had issues with people at work in the past due to chatter during the memorial sunday and 11/11 two minute silences

[Kimmik]

Well, it is contempt of court. Also, just a personal opinion, but I hate people who love the benefits of their country, but get uppity when it comes to being patriotic. It reminds me of that little boy who wouldn't recite the pledge a year or so ago. I'd never let my kids get away with that. Too many people in my family have bled and died so that I can live the life I do.

I have been suspended, given detention, harassed and insulted,spit on all because I refuse to recite the pledge of allegiance. Why you may ask... because I do not believe in saluting man made objects. As a child I was raised as a JW, they do not salute the flag because it is no better then a graven image. Just as I do not believe in the military in the fact that killing is killing no matter the "cause" nor do I believe in the death penalty. Now before someone calls me un-patriotic, I have seen what wars do.. I have seen what they cost.. and I will out of respect stand, just as I wore a hajib to my friends wedding out of respect.

We are not a "Christian" nation, we are suppose to be a nation that recognizes the freedom to believe as you wish. The freedom from forced allegiance, forced beliefs and forced patriotism. I have buried family who have come home in a flag draped box, I have watched as my uncle went into a ball at a high pitched sound, and I have watched as he woke screaming of people long dead.

Putting your hand over your heart or saluting and saying "magic" words make you no more a patriot then someone who does not. The Judge in my opinion is un-patriotic because he tried to force someone to conform to his ideology.

[Hobbs]

Just as I do not believe in the military in the fact that killing is killing no matter the "cause"

So, you're calling me a killer? Now who's being close-minded?

[Ladeeda]

So, you're calling me a killer? Now who's being close-minded?

Actually s/he was calling soldiers who have killed people killers.

Which, you know, they are. The very definition of a killer is one who has killed. Heck, I've killed insects, and committed genocide on an ant hill.

I don't have anything against the military or them doing what they are trained to do, but don't think that entitles any serving or retired soldier to get their panties in a twist when other people choose not to do the Pledge. It's a free country, after all.

[Hobbs]

and committed genocide on an ant hill.

Um...no. Genocide refers to the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race.

[crashhelmet]

I've been staying out of this thread because it's something that truly gets me worked up and pissed off about. For the record, I come from a large military family. All 4 of my great-grandfathers earned their citizenship by enlisting in the US Military. All of their sons enlisted and all of their sons enlisted. I am the only son in my generation that didn't enlist, and that's only because I shattered my ankle and they said "No Thanks."

Everyone in my family that enlisted did so out of patriotism. They did it out of duty to their country. They did it for tradition. Some enlisted for 30+ years. Some did it for only 4. I enjoyed growing up in the military life. Seeing the world and how others lived. it was experiencing those other cultures that really taught me how great it was to be an American and what our Rights and freedoms truly mean.

So with that said, it seriously pisses me off to no end when I see these people trying to force patriotism on others. These blatant disregards of our Rights, Freedoms, and even our Laws are a smack in the face to all those living that fought for them and a spit on the graves of those who died for them.

You think you're more of a patriot than me because you do or where something that I don't? Fuck you! You think you have the right to call someone out for not displaying their patriotism like you do? Fuck you! For you truly have no idea what it means to be a patriot.

Patriotism isn't about enlisting in the military, saying the Pledge of Allegiance, or flying our Flag at your home. It's about believing in and fighting for what our nation was founded on and doing so for everyone, not just your self or your political aspirations.

This country has been in a downward spiral ever since we started interpreting the Constitution much like people interpret the Bible. Whatever suits and fulfills their needs. That's about as unpatriotic as you can get.

CH