Judge jails a lawyer for not reciting the Pledge of Allegance

[Kimmik]

So, you're calling me a killer? Now who's being close-minded?

Ok lets see my uncle who I love dearly wakes up screaming for people long dead, of people he killed or that he saw killed. Ask him what he did in the army and he will tell you he killed people. That was what he was trained for and that is what he did. It doesn't make you a hero, you kill them before they kill you, that is how all military has ever been. And to quote my uncle, "there are no hero's in wars just causalities."

Killing is Killing no matter the cause or reason. I did not say it makes you evil, as everyone needs to make that call for themselves. My Uncle didn't go to Vietnam to protect us, he went because that is where his orders sent him.

And it was living with him where I learned what loving your country and being patriotic means; It does not mean standing reciting a bunch of words at a cloth object, it is not who flies the flag highest, who knows the anthem backwards and forwards, it is not someone that says well "we fight for your freedoms". It is the people that work to make the country and world a better place, those that try to bring everyone together instead of pointing out that Johnny didnt pledge allegiance to the flag right.

Talking to my Uncle about his past and the military history I have learned that a country can go to hell when its people start fearing those who are "different". The Nazi's are a good example of this as is America with the internment camps and those of Japanese decent. When we start attacking those that are different or don't do what we think good Americans should do... that we start sliding into that area that we call evil in other countries.

And before anyone yells at me for bringing up Nazi's please realize I am talking about them in the aspect of what made a good citizen. Turn in those that are not like us, jail those that stand out, etc. Does that make sense?

[Hobbs]

Ok lets see my uncle who I love dearly wakes up screaming for people long dead, of people he killed or that he saw killed. Ask him what he did in the army and he will tell you he killed people. That was what he was trained for and that is what he did. It doesn't make you a hero, you kill them before they kill you, that is how all military has ever been. And to quote my uncle, "there are no hero's in wars just causalities."

My grandfather voluntarily went to Vietnam. Prior to that, he served in WWII and Korea. Yes he had night terrors, but he was proud, to the day he died, that he had served his country. All your anecdote tells us is that your uncle, sadly, had a hard time adjusting back to civilian life. All my anecdote tells us is that others came back and were able to reintegrate into society.

Talking to my Uncle about his past and the military history I have learned that...

What I have learned from military history is that mankind becomes its best, and worst, during wartime. Take Somalia. 20,000 Marines restored order and allowed food shipments to finally make it to the starving people of that country. A few months later, Somalis were dragging naked American corpses through the streets. After WWII, the Soviets tried to cut off Berlin from the rest of the world? Our response? Begin the most massive military airlift in history (at the time).

And now, a quote:

Only where battle is being fought is life being lived.
-Adm. Donald Hayes

[Ladeeda]

My grandfather voluntarily went to Vietnam. Prior to that, he served in WWII and Korea. Yes he had night terrors, but he was proud, to the day he died, that he had served his country. All your anecdote tells us is that your uncle, sadly, had a hard time adjusting back to civilian life. All my anecdote tells us is that others came back and were able to reintegrate into society.




What I have learned from military history is that mankind becomes its best, and worst, during wartime. Take Somalia. 20,000 Marines restored order and allowed food shipments to finally make it to the starving people of that country. A few months later, Somalis were dragging naked American corpses through the streets. After WWII, the Soviets tried to cut off Berlin from the rest of the world? Our response? Begin the most massive military airlift in history (at the time).

And now, a quote:

Only where battle is being fought is life being lived.
-Adm. Donald Hayes

And this indicates everyone ABSOLUTELY MUST WITHOUT EXCEPTION perform the Pledge because...?

[Andara Bledin]

I'd never let my kids get away with that. Too many people in my family have bled and died so that I can live the life I do.

It seems to me that your family bled and died so that we would have the right to refrain from saying the pledge.

Also, it's technically against the Christian faith to pledge to an idol of cloth and thread. Plus the whole "don't do rituals" thing.

I stopped saying the pledge as a ritual at about the same point that I started exercising critical thought for myself, sometime in high school. I will sometimes say it, should the situation merit, but I leave out the bits that involve the flag itself.

Thankfully, I live in America, where it is my prerogative and right to so do.

^-.-^

[Hobbs]

And this indicates everyone ABSOLUTELY MUST WITHOUT EXCEPTION perform the Pledge because...?

Um...I was talking to Kimmik about our differing point of views. I don't think my post was meant to answer that, actually. If you look in both of our posts, I don't think you'll find we were directly discussing that.

Also, it's technically against the Christian faith to pledge to an idol of cloth and thread. Plus the whole "don't do rituals" thing.

That's news to me. I'm pretty sure mass could be considered a ritual.

It's not a sin according to my faith. And I don't consider the flag an idol; it's a symbolic representation of my nation.

Thankfully, I live in America, where it is my prerogative and right to so do.

^-.-^

Yes, that's good, isn't it?

I still think it's sad how little respect people have for their country. But then, I don't wear the uniform for popularity contests.

[Rageaholic]

And it was living with him where I learned what loving your country and being patriotic means; It does not mean standing reciting a bunch of words at a cloth object, it is not who flies the flag highest, who knows the anthem backwards and forwards, it is not someone that says well "we fight for your freedoms". It is the people that work to make the country and world a better place, those that try to bring everyone together instead of pointing out that Johnny didnt pledge allegiance to the flag right.

QFT

A lot of that stuff is symbolic anyway. The way I see it, if the flag waving and pledges are important to someone, they are free to take part in it. But don't act like someone is commiting a huge sin for feeling differently. All that ever does is create more hostility. I could go on and on about misguided patroitism, but that's for another thread.

The point here is that this judge jailed someone over something trivial. Even if he somehow had legal justification, it was still a dick move. Jail someone for commiting real crimes like rape and murder, not refusing to recite the pledge.

[Bronzebow]

Well, it is contempt of court. Also, just a personal opinion, but I hate people who love the benefits of their country, but get uppity when it comes to being patriotic. It reminds me of that little boy who wouldn't recite the pledge a year or so ago. I'd never let my kids get away with that. Too many people in my family have bled and died so that I can live the life I do.

Actually, this is not contempt of court. What the judge did here is highly illegal and a pretty clear cut case of civil rights abuse. He should count himself lucky that he's a judge, since only other judges could sanction this appalling anti-American display. It takes a whole lot more than this to rile up the Robes enough to take down one of their own.

Lesson learned: Stay away from Mississippi.

[Andara Bledin]

That's news to me. I'm pretty sure mass could be considered a ritual.

It has to do with the performance of rituals empty of the meaning behind them. And that, really, is the heart of this issue.

Many people do the pledge because that's what you do, not because of any sense of patriotism, and many of those do so out of a sense of coercion, either through peer pressure or direct command.

I don't feel any need to put on a display of patriotism, and I absolutely object to declaring my allegiance to an object no matter what it might represent.

^-.-^

[Salesmonkey]

Something that hasn't been addressed here is that the judge was requiring everyone in the courtroom to recite the pledge - so what about a visiting foreign national? It would be illegal (back home) for them to swear allegiance to a foreign flag.

[Ipecac Drano]

Something that hasn't been addressed here is that the judge was requiring everyone in the courtroom to recite the pledge - so what about a visiting foreign national? It would be illegal (back home) for them to swear allegiance to a foreign flag.

Not to mention how would the American judge enforce it? Try explaining the visitor's incarceration (no matter how limited) to his or her government. Whoo boy!

[EmiOfBrie]

With the exception of the words "Under God" (added in 1954), I have no problem with the Pledge.

However, what the judge did was WAY out of line.

When I was in school, we used to recite it every morning until I was in about 4th or 5th Grade (1981/82/83). They tried to bring back the daily recital when I was in 12th Grade (1989/90), but it didn't pan out. Basically, they learned no one likes to be forced to say it, even if they believe in it.

[Ipecac Drano]

With the exception of the words "Under God" (added in 1954), I have no problem with the Pledge.

However, what the judge did was WAY out of line.

I agree on both points.

When I was in school, we used to recite it every morning until I was in about 4th or 5th Grade (1981/82/83). They tried to bring back the daily recital when I was in 12th Grade (1989/90), but it didn't pan out. Basically, they learned no one likes to be forced to say it, even if they believe in it.

I've always felt that if you're already in this country and enjoying your freedom, why do you have to proclaim it? If you didn't, does it mean that you hate America? Jeez O'Pete!

If one feels like proclaiming their patriotism, go ahead. But if they're doing it out of obligation or for fear of being ostracized, that really takes the meaning out of it.