Lowering Standards

[Boozy]

Would you want to trust your life to someone who acts like a wannabe gangsta?

Whoa! Where did this come from?

It certainly wasn't in the news article. You're the first person to bring it up here. I'm not even sure that anyone said anything about blacks specifically.

You heard the word "minority" and jumped to the conclusion that the problem was a "gangsta" attitude. Why?

[lordlundar]

Wow. so many people jumped on an example as being my only point of view. And I like how people are calling me racist because I said wannabe gangsta, even though I didn't mention race any time I'm quoted.

Shall I reiterate? The gangsta culture is an example, one that is one of the most prevalent in the US. You can take any racist point of view and stick it in and still make my point of that situation. White Supremacist? I don't trust them any more than wannabe gangstas, irregardless of colour. But no, you call me a racist because I made a possible legitimate connection in the article. Note I said possible. I never said it was the reason, but it is the most likely one.

Why did I choose the gangsta culture? Because the article did mention black people as the minority, and the most vocal people say that this culture should be endorsed by the black community. This is also a culture that is most against law and order and embracing it has a habit of a conflict of interest for officers. A "do I uphold the law or do I support my homies" issue if you will.

So thank you for calling me a racist when the only mention of race I made was as an example of embracing a culture that counteracts law enforcement. By the way, show me were I said I would trust a white person flaunting their gangsta attitude over a black person being responsible. You drew that racist conclusion, not me.

I'm part German, does that make me a Nazi? If you honestly think that it does than you can take your racist declaration, make a flag out of it, run it up a pole and salute because you are more racist than I. For the record, very few of my friends were/are white, with most of them being other colours.

And Seshat, with you mentioning individuals change, I do not argue that, which is a big point of the test. It is to see if they can react properly when put on the spot. And I do agree that their should be cultural differences allowed and there are certain levels that are fine. But once again, it is a blurry line there, and certain levels that shouldn't be crossed. That is where the subjective comes into play. If an officer sees a weapon, I would definitely be in fear for my life if said officer said it's normal. Most likely, those officers failing the test and those that quit shortly after are ones who couldn't handle it.

You are right, having a police force not representative of the population is a problem, but (and I speak from a perfect world perspective here) skin colour should not be a part of it. They're not rejecting people because of skin colour, they're rejecting them because when they're on the spot, they make the wrong choice. This should not change.

[AFPheonix]

The reason why it appears only the minority are hit is because of the culture. The black people often proclaim that gansta rap and gangsta attitude is a part of their culture and should be flaunted. This means a positive reinforcement toward violence, weapons, abuse, and most notably an often violent disrespect for authority. If my life is on the line, I certainly wouldn't want someone expressing a gangsta attitude protecting me.

The oral exam typically puts them in situations where it boils down to choosing either your culture or society as a whole, and due to people like Reverend Al Sharpton, who say that if you don't embrace the culture, you betray it, most potential black officers go toward their culture instead. Those that pass and quit are most often the ones who thought they weren't going to be held to account from that test, only to find out they are.

You don't understand why any of what I'm quoting is racist? Can you come up with any legitimate stats on where black officers overall are more corrupt and give a pass to black people than white cops do to white people?

[lordlundar]

You don't understand why any of what I'm quoting is racist?

Because I said I wouldn't want a person who thinks they're a gangsta protecting me? Because I never said I wouldn't want a black person protecting me. News flash, it can be a person who's white, yellow, black or green with polka dots. If they embrace a culture that accepts shooting someone because they look at you wrong is acceptable, I don't want them having a badge.

And yes, black people have claimed gangsta culture as their culture, and yes, Al Sharpton is decidedly racist and has referred to white people as "white interlopers" and yes, black people with an axe to grind do listen to him and "fight the white". And yes, they are more likely to accept the culture they are surrounded with. It is simple biology; surround yourself with an influence and you accept that influence as the only point of view. Colour is irrelevant, but because black people embrace the culture, it is more likely to happen.

That said, at no point did I say it was absolute. There are people who ignore those trappings and who look at society at large first, and I honestly wish that more of these people would apply. But a history of abuse (I'm talking slavery) and a current culture to hate others for no legitimate reason is a very big pull to overcome, and I commend those people who can, but I do not draw the conclusion that because you are black, you are a gangsta.

Can you come up with any legitimate stats on where black officers overall are more corrupt and give a pass to black people than white cops do to white people?

No, because I never said that black are more corrupt, just that when the snap decision came down to it, the decision was wrong. I never said they would side with their race. If an officer pulls over a car and the driver was acting like a gangsta, I would like said officer to notice something out of the ordinary and not accept it as part of the culture. Partially for the safety of the general public, but also for their own safety. Remember, this is a culture that give positive reinforcement toward anti-law. A wrong decision here means death. Give me more people like Martin Luther King and Bill Cosby, who can get people of any race to pull together and less people like Al Sharpton, who try to drive the wedge deeper, and the ratio is more likely to even out than any "training" that can be done.

I admit my wording of black officers going toward their culture being wrong. It really should be "most potential officers go to their culture instead." At least other people's lives weren't on the line when I made that mistake, and the test makes sure that if potential officers can't make the right calls, they don't have the badge. If you want an environment where your life is on the line because someone chooses to let a possible suspect go based on culture, fine by me. A number of people "beat the system" because of an attitude like that.

[AFPheonix]

When you say "The black people often proclaim that gansta rap and gangsta attitude is a part of their culture and should be flaunted. This means a positive reinforcement toward violence, weapons, abuse, and most notably an often violent disrespect for authority.", you are inferring that ALL black people are that way.
That makes about as much sense as "The white people often proclaim that country music and a hick attitude is a part of their culture and should be flaunted. This means a positive reinforcement to cow tipping, Jack Daniels, hitting your barefoot and pregnant wife, and most notably an often violent yet somehow cool disrespect for authority by jumping the General Lee over a large gap".

Probably a better corollary to what you're trying to say would be to link social class and location to attitudes and culture, rather than simply skin color. That might make better sense, and would give us as a nation a place to work towards to achieve true equality.

[Seshat]

Give me more people like Martin Luther King and Bill Cosby,

Amen to that. The world could use a hell of a lot more Martin Luther Kings and Bill Cosbys. And the various Aboriginals who have performed for Play School (an Australian kid's show - usually played as a two-fer with Sesame Street). Hm. Almost anyone who's played for Play School, or Sesame Street, now I think about it.

Mr Hooper. We could use more Mr Hoopers. (That was the name of the guy who ran the store at Sesame St, wasn't it?)

[powerboy]

I am with Lordlunder on this. I would not want a Gangsta to protect me. And yes people, Gangstas could be of any race.

[AFPheonix]

They certainly could, but Lundar specifically linked Black culture to Gansta culture, and that's why I rode his ass a bit.

I don't know how familiar you are with the process to becoming a police officer, but there is a pretty exhaustive battery of tests and background checks to get in. I suspect that someone who is involved in gang activity to any degree or other illegal activities is not going to pass those personality and background checks.

[Fuzzykitten99]

They certainly could, but Lundar specifically linked Black culture to Gansta culture, and that's why I rode his ass a bit.

I don't know how familiar you are with the process to becoming a police officer, but there is a pretty exhaustive battery of tests and background checks to get in. I suspect that someone who is involved in gang activity to any degree or other illegal activities is not going to pass those personality and background checks.

I have been reading this whole set with interest, as I & DH have a good friend (Justin) who went to school to be a police officer or law enforcement of some kind. Currently, he works part time at Home Depot, and PT at a city jail, to get experience.

He jumped through all the hoops at school and has done numerous internships. He recently applied to a nearby county's precinct and I got the phonecall from the screening person, basically asking about his character and personality.

This person interviewing me, asked me what boiled down to the same question, only reworded or about different situations. Of course I never changed my answers, because I was telling the 100% truth about what I knew of Justin.

I was on the phone for about 45 minutes with the lady doing this.

Now, I just would like to point out that I would hope that they are looking at Justin's credentials and test scores both in school and ones that they administer the same as any other person, regardless of sex or race. If they give higher scores to someone else *just because* they are black or a woman, that itself is discrimination based on color and gender.

[daleduke17]

http://www.sj-r.com/News/stories/28271.asp

Here's another article about the Springfield Police Department and their hiring of officers. There's one part that stands out to me like they don't want to raise the standards based on minority recruitment:

He said some aldermen want a higher education level for recruits, while others are worried the requirement could hurt minority recruitment.

I'm sorry, last I knew minorities were allowed into schools that offer Criminal Justice courses (including Lincolnland Community College and UIS - both in Springfield) and also into all of the police training institutes in the state. So, how exactly is a requirement of a four-year degree going to hurt minority recruitment?

I am just getting irritated reading everywhere (like I posted in the past) "minorities encouraged to apply" or "we have to be diverse" or any other language that states "we have to have more minorities".

Just hire whoever the best candidate is. If it is a black man, fine. If it is a Latino, fine. If it is (apparently God forbid) a white guy, fine.

[Seshat]

Given what I've been told in other threads about the condition of the US education system, and the access (or lack thereof) to scholarships and other funding for disadvantaged students: a high educational requirement can act as an effective barrier to minority/disadvantaged access to particular fields of work.

However, lowering educational standards for the actual working intake is not an appropriate response to the problem. The appropriate response, IMO, would be to make remedial education and scholarships/funding available to people who pass a pre-education test.

Basically, my vote is that anyone (white, black, latino or polka-dotted) who has the right personality traits, potential health, and other necessary but not education-based qualifications should be able to apply for remedial education and a means-tested scholarship to the police college. Possibly also means-tested health care. Certain types of cultural variation should also be acceptable at this stage - see earlier in this thread about 'living by the calendar'.

Those who pass the schooling, make necessary cultural adaptations, and finish with appropriate health, are therefore equally qualified for the job regardless of background - and those who needed an assist to become qualified, will have received it.

[DarthRetard]

Probably a better corollary to what you're trying to say would be to link social class and location to attitudes and culture, rather than simply skin color. That might make better sense, and would give us as a nation a place to work towards to achieve true equality.

For starters, true equality can't be acheived because we all feel cheated somehow. It's great to work towards it, and we should never lose sight, but I'll be damned if you can convince me that total equality for all men (and women too, of course), is 100% acheivable.

Second, I think you need to get off Lundar's back a bit. Yeah, he's not putting his ideas in the best context, of course, but sometimes we all get misunderstood. Believe me, I know. Here's why I think it's a little unfair to jump the gun on him, and feel free to "correct" me:

1. Gang Culture is NOT limited to just NY, CHI, MIA, and LA. It's really not. I understand the theory behind it, and it is an applicable one, but not in practice. It's everywhere.

2. Second, it's pretty easy to link one race with a certain type of behavior. Stereotypes exist, good and bad. Accept them, embrace them, laugh at them, and stop being oversensitive about them.

3. I think we're still afraid of saying what we feel as WASPs, to be honest, because we're afraid the Sharpton's and Jackson's, that as being a part of "whitey", we have all been responsible for our black bretheren's downfall. Anyone overly accusing someone of being overly stereotypical and judgemental is really only fertilizing the excuse for gang culture to lash out.

4. How come there's no White Entertainment Television? That'd be racist. No NAAWP? You know what's funny? A black/latino/chinese/greek/whatever man/woman can stand a white man down, and accuse them of prejudice, and be called a fighter against the system. A white man fights against a negative stereotype being perpetuated by the black community themselves, and he's a racist.

5. If the black community honestly had a problem with the way hip/hop and gang culture was perpetuating and fostering violence in the community, they'd fight back against viacom and do some real parenting themselves. I grew up in a pretty violent neighborhood, havent killed anyone. I listen to hip/hop, and havent killed anyone. The music isnt the problem. It's the culture created by it, which in turn get's IDOLIZED by the younger african-american community and saturated in the streets of Anywhere, USA.

Reason no 5 is why it's a class based issue.

In closing, I will be the first to point out that it's not solely blacks, whites, latino/as, or asians, or whatever, that perpetuate this issue, but I have to ask: Please regard my statements as mere speculation and not statement. My best friend Khaled is from Jordan, and the owner of my hang out is african american and we hang out frequently. I'm just here in the interests of the 1st Amendment and Contrarianism. <3

[AFPheonix]

I don't know if true equality will ever exist, but that doesn't mean that we can just put our fingers in our ears and hope that those darn interlopers won't come and spoil our perfect suburban life with their problems. We can still work to becoming as close to ideal as possible.

You're right. Gang culture can be found in as innocuous places as Boulder, Colorado. It's origins are in large city centers, however, and has transported with people as they moved. It' still found mostly in urban and poor areas.

It may be easy to link race with one type of behavior, but that doesn't make it right. It's really easy for me to hang out all day in my underpants but that doesn't make it right, either.

I don't feel necessarily responsible for the way blacks were treated in the past, seeing as I'm a 2nd generation immigrant, but I can certainly be responsible for my attitudes today. The attitudes expressed on this particular thread I find disturbing.

Seriously? White entertainment tv? We like to call that ABC, NBC and CBS. It also covers pretty much every other channel with perhaps the exception of the spanish channels.

Yes. All black parents are bad. Of course.

Show your black friend this thread and what Lundar and you have said. I'd be interested to hear what he'd have to say.

[DesignFox]

Seriously? White entertainment tv? We like to call that ABC, NBC and CBS. It also covers pretty much every other channel with perhaps the exception of the spanish channels.

I don't know, I think Darth had a good point with that one. How are those channels "white" entertainment? Seriously. I'd say the networks are pretty diverse nowadays.

The point is you can call something "black only" or "hispanic only" and it's not considered racism, despite the fact that white people are being excluded.

Point in fact- scholarship programs. The NAACP doesn't give scholarships to white kids. They are only for "children of color".

No way in hell could you ever specify that a scholarship was only to be given to a white child. Oh no. That's RACIST!

Discrimination is wrong. Both ways.

Lowering standards so you can hire minorities...wrong on so many levels! That implies that minorities aren't as good! What bullshit! The same standard should be held for all candidates!

If you want to try and take people out of the ghetto, if you want to hire more people with different ethnic backgrounds- that's admirable. We need diversity. But don't lower the bar. That's insulting to everyone involved. Hold the same standards, but give people who have no access to the education a chance to get it. Level out the playing field rather than hand out advantages for arbritrary reasons.

And I hate to say it but, stereotypes exist for a reason. We all need to work to eliminate them- some of us by being less judgemental, and others of us by working not to reinforce our stereotype.

[Seshat]

3. I think we're still afraid of saying what we feel as WASPs, to be honest, because we're afraid the Sharpton's and Jackson's, that as being a part of "whitey", we have all been responsible for our black bretheren's downfall. Anyone overly accusing someone of being overly stereotypical and judgemental is really only fertilizing the excuse for gang culture to lash out.

Just as a curiousity: I'm not a WASP. I also know other people on this board who aren't.