Lowering Standards

[DarthRetard]

Fine, leave out the WASP description. There's still cultural segregation wherever you look, and it just so happens it can swing against whites now too.

AFPhoenix, my black friend was looking at this thread while I typed it, and he agreed, for the most part. He's not always on my side about everything, and he keeps my ass in check if i step over a line, but sometimes I'll step that damned line anyways.

The issue in question here is special interest groups and racial quotas. Even the military does it. For instance, the Coast Guard wouldn't accept me because I'm a white male, and they have "too many". Forget that I'm young, healthy, want to serve, love the water, and knew the Coast GUard's history seeing as I know half the recruiters. They wanted more minorities out of requirement.

Colleges do it. Scholarship programs do it. It's meant to seem fair, and in the paperwork it sounds fair, but in reality the NAACP and ACLU are still trying to make us "right" wrongs our forefathers committed close to 300 years ago. I see stories all the time about kids from urban areas without a hope making it to big schools and becoming successful in whatever they do. I'm not saying we shouldn't help them, but making it so they have a foot in wherever they go when I'm still knocking at the goddamned door makes it a bit unfair, dont you think?

[AFPheonix]

I don't know, I think Darth had a good point with that one. How are those channels "white" entertainment? Seriously. I'd say the networks are pretty diverse nowadays.

Who owns those channels? Old white guys. Who stars mainly on those channels with the exception of a few token minorities? White people. Same for movies coming out of Hollywood for the most part.
What do you guys even think a "white entertainment channel" would look like? The Lawrence Welk show?

As for lowering the bar for minorities, show me where in the original article it said that was going to happen.
Here's what they said they were going to do to rectify the problem:

The city intends to put more emphasis on preparing all candidates, minority or not, for the oral interview process, Miller said. That includes workshops and providing tips on how to interview well.

No one's getting special help. Relax.
I'm sorry you are having issues getting into the Coast Guard. If it makes you feel any better, the Pharm D program I've been trying to get into has been extremely competitive, too. However, I'm not going to sit back and blame my lack of entry on my white bread status. I am doing everything in my power to make myself attractive, including volunteering and taking more classes to up my GPA even further. The only things we have control over are our own actions and attitudes.

As for scholarships, they offer scholarships to anyone with something a little different about them. Hell, there were scholarships available to left-handed people. Are we going to accuse that particular group of being prejudiced against righties?

[DarthRetard]

I don't know, I think this thread got pretty derailed into an over paranoid issue, seeing as the article really doesn't say anything about lowering standards or showing preferential treatment. However, I can see DaleDuke's point about that just being in the subtext, you know? First it's "reaching out", then it becomes "quotas". All in all I'm always game for more diversity, it brings so many different ideas and backgrounds to the table and makes things more comprehensive and understandable.

[AFPheonix]

Perhaps, but if you read down in the comments on the article that DaleDuke posted, the mayor of Springfield doesn't even have a 4 year degree. Actually, most of the argument was about educated vs non educated. There was not a lot of concern about minorities.
I suppose if their concern is that high school graduates from their schools can't write or speak worth a crap, perhaps they need to be increasing the time spent on writing and speaking in their curriculum.

[Seshat]

Fine, leave out the WASP description. There's still cultural segregation wherever you look, and it just so happens it can swing against whites now too.

Never said there wasn't, and never said it didn't. There is and it does, and I think I've said that previously in this thread. If not, I said it in other threads.
(But I don't expect people to remember everything I've said, so - eh. I'll repeat myself.)

The issue in question here is special interest groups and racial quotas.

The sensible moderates in the minorities I'm a member of are strongly AGAINST quotas. The sensible moderates in the minorities I've spoken to are also strongly AGAINST quotas.

You know who wants quotas? Mostly Rich White Men (tm)(*) who happen to be powerful and comfortable in their positions and see it as an easy way to manage the risk of a discrimination suit.

Certainly much easier than genuinely solving the issues causing unfair disadvantage/unfair advantage.

(*) Also people of other gender, races and classes who fit the rest of the description.

It's meant to seem fair, and in the paperwork it sounds fair,

Yup - because it's there to be something to point to and say 'see? We don't discriminate'. Legal ass-covering.

but in reality the NAACP and ACLU are still trying to make us "right" wrongs

No comment: I know little about the two groups.

our forefathers committed close to 300 years ago.

In Australia, there were serious wrongs committed to the Aboriginal peoples in the 1950s and 1960s. And neglect continuing in some areas to today. So we're working on things that are our fault, and that impacted people currently living. This gives us a different perspective.

I see stories all the time about kids from urban areas without a hope making it to big schools and becoming successful in whatever they do.

It's only newsworthy if it's rare.

I'm not saying we shouldn't help them, but making it so they have a foot in wherever they go when I'm still knocking at the goddamned door makes it a bit unfair, dont you think?

You know how ironic that sounds to someone who is a minority (or two)? That's exactly what the experience of being a political minority is - everywhere. Not just jobs, but everything.

Of course, if that's the typical experience where you are for an able, educated, upper working class or higher white heterosexual (or closeted) male who speaks the dominant language as his native language, then yes, the pendulum has swung too far.

(If that's not your description, then you're a minority of whichever type(s) doesn't describe you.)

[Boozy]

In Australia, there were serious wrongs committed to the Aboriginal peoples in the 1950s and 1960s. And neglect continuing in some areas to today. So we're working on things that are our fault, and that impacted people currently living. This gives us a different perspective.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I read that Kevin Rudd recently apologized to the Aboriginals for past mistreatment.

That was a real cool thing to do, in my opinion.

Sorry for the off topic interruption.

[DesignFox]

Who owns those channels? Old white guys. Who stars mainly on those channels with the exception of a few token minorities? White people. Same for movies coming out of Hollywood for the most part.
What do you guys even think a "white entertainment channel" would look like? The Lawrence Welk show?
<snip>

I don't know. I don't think we should ever have one. I'm just making the point that you can use certain words if you're a minority, but not if you are in the majority.

And the second article does make the statement that they are concerned that raising the educational bar would make it harder for the recruiters to hire minorities.

That's implying that minorities don't go to college and so won't be able to get the job. I think that's insulting to the minorities.

I also think it's bullshit. If candidates should have a college degree...they should have a college degree. You shouldn't hesitate to raise standards because you might not be able to hire minorities. Find those people that want an education and help them get it. Don't lower the bar so any schmo can reach it.

And yes, Phoenix, I understand the point about the scholarships. I'm just making the point that it's a double standard. If you can say only ____ can qualify for this scholarship, then anybody should be able to set any standard they want. No one should be able to cry foul if I say I only want my money going to a white boy (just for example).

When I was in high school, McDonald's offered 4 scholarships. I could only apply for 1 of the 4 because I am not black or latino. And the 1 I could apply for, all the blacks and latinos could also apply for. I don't see that as being diverse or fair. I literally got a lesser chance of earning a scholarship from a big name corporation in the name of diversity.

(thankfully there were plenty of OTHER scholarships I could and did apply for...)

I'm just making the point that shit goes both ways. If you can have a foundation that primarily helps children based on their race... then why is it wrong to have an equal foundation that only helps children of a different race?

More importantly, why should that even factor into it to begin with?

Maybe when a few more decades pass everyone will stop being so uppity about shit...I don't know.

[AFPheonix]

True, a few of the aldermen in that town were worried about minority recruitment lowering due to the college degree requirement. I was just pointing out that the people who actually live in Springfield were more concerned with problems with the requirement other than race. Actually overall, race had an extremely small part to play in that article.

Back to the scholarship thing: why does it bother you so much that some people are offered scholarships (by private entities) based on race, and not due to other differences, such as place of employment, hobbies, groups joined, or other physical differences? Does it bother you that there's scholarships available to people only with disabilities? Should those scholarships be opened up to able people?
Should the 4-H scholarship I earned be opened up to FFA kids?

Keep in mind that we're still in a transition period in this country as far as getting minorities on a level playing field. It really wasn't all that long ago that southern states had to be forcefully desegregated. We might perceive that they're getting "extra" benefits based on their ethnicity, but compared to what we get simply because we're the majority, it's not a whole lot.

[DarthRetard]

AFPhoenix, for me, it's not the act of offering the deals and such, it's the motive behind it, you know? If you give someone a scholarship for being black because you WANT more diversity in your school, than that's fine, it's your school, do as you please. However, if that person gets a scholarship because they're black and it's motivated by the NAACP or some sort of guilt or lawsuit enforcement, it's done for all the wrong reasons.

Forcing minorities into schools who don't want to accept them yet doesn't make them any less segregated or left out, you know what I mean? That's just my view, and to be honest, I'm all for designating time and effort to get more minorities and diversity in our large universities and schools, I really am. A smarter America can only be good for me, not harm me.

[DesignFox]

To answer your question Phoenix, it doesn't bother me directly. What bothers me is the double standard. If I can choose to help only left handed children, then someone else should be able to choose to help only right handed children and there should be no hard feelings.

THAT'S what I have a problem with.

[Norton]

A little anecdote regarding race and scholarships:

From age 2 to age 20, I lived in a predominately black neighborhood. My family is white (there was one other white family whose kids went to private school). In my senior year of highschool, there was a ceremony where awards and scholarships were given out. I was very suprised when someone won a *my neighborhood* scholarship. I had never heard of it before. The option was never presented to me. I have no proof, but I believe I was never considered because of my skin color. As I understood, the *my neighborhood* scholarship should have been available to all kids living in *my neighborhood*


Another regarding school:

I was homeschooled in 7th grade. I hated it, and signed back up for public school in 8th grade. I wanted to take honors classes, but was told that it was too late, classes were full, etc. Somehow, I got into honors classses anyway. I was told that the administration had found a way to fit me in.

A couple of months later, I was called to a classroom for a special field trip. I was the only white person in the room. The teacher looked at me and said "I think there's been some confusion." She did some checking, and found out my most recent records said I was black. It's understandable, since my last name is common to both white and black people, but still I nor my mother would mistake my race on school forms.

I think it's no coincedence that my race was changed on my records and that I was accepted into "full" honors classes.

What I want to know is why didn't I deserve the same kind of help as my next-door neighbors? We were no richer, for sure. We lived in the same enviroment all through our childhoods. My parents had no money to send me to college. The time I spent in college was paid for 100% by me, working a crummy food service job.

I believe black people are no different from me. Isn't that the meaning of equality? So why are they being treated differently, as if they were handicapped?

[DesignFox]

That's another point I was trying to make Norton.

I was lucky. I managed to earn a few scholarships. It didn't pay 100%. Not by far, but I did get some help.

During school, I worked a campus job. And of course I have loans that I'll be paying off for the next ten years. I consider myself lucky, and still thank my donors at every opportunity I get.

Unfortunately, the one program I benefited from got cancelled...but I spoke at their dinners, I spoke at my college, and every year I wrote essays for them to help keep it going. Oh well.

Back to the topic....

[Boozy]

I was very suprised when someone won a *my neighborhood* scholarship. I had never heard of it before. The option was never presented to me.

I received lots of financial aid and scholarships, and not one of them was just presented to me without any effort on my part. I had to research what scholarships were available and apply for them.

I can only assume that if you hadn't heard of this scholarship, then you didn't apply for it. Its very easy to blame your skin colour, but frankly, if you wanted a scholarship, you needed to be more proactive.

[DesignFox]

Yes, you do need to search out the scholarships. I had to go to my guidance counselor to pick up the necessary forms, research online, etc. My school made the new forms available each week, and we had to go down to the office to pick them up.

I don't know how it worked at your school Norton.

[Norton]

All graduating seniors met with guidance counselors, who would put together a list of scholarships that the student qualified for. I was offered a few, but never knew about the *my neighborhood* scholarship* until it was given out at the ceremony.


Just to clarify, this isn't jealousy. Since I hadn't decided which college to attend, I would not have gotten any scholarships whether I applied or not. However, I was still given the option for scholarships in case I made up my mind. *my neighborhood* scholarship was not one of them.