I'm not surprised at the USA being behind in schools....

[AdminAssistant]

Oh, the red pen. It's not because red is 'evil' or 'bad', it's because it's a different color than everything else on the page! sheesh.

And Greenday is right. College grads should be able to do some basic things: communicate clearly both on paper and in person (English Comp, Speech and Communication), logically think through problems (Philosophy), know basic world history and politics (World Civ, Poli Sci), know the history and governmental proceedings of their own country very well (American History, American Government for us), know the history of various art and cultural movements (Appreciation or History of any Fine Art), understand how the world works in a practical sense (Science and Math), and understand how society works, both in the past and present (Sociology, various Area Studies).

I have a student from South Korea who doesn't understand the concept of homosexuality. When asked to do a scene where he played a gay character, he acted like a woman. When I asked him about it later, he said he didn't know how gay people acted because there aren't any gay people in South Korea (which is, of course, untrue). Of course that kid needs to be in a Sociology or Sexuality Studies class; we shouldn't let people graduate thinking that gay people don't exist in certain societies!

We also need to get over this idea that everyone needs to go to college. They don't. Everyone should get the training they need for the career they desire. Some of those careers require a bachelor's degree, some require even more education. If your goal in life is to be a plumber, then you need technical certification, not a college degree. And you'll make more money than a lot of people holding Ph.D.s.

[guywithashovel]

Looking back on my K-12 schooling, I think a big chunk of the problem is that many classes don't challenge the students to apply what they are learning to their lives. For example, in college, one of my professors (government and social science) required us to follow current news stories based on what we were learning in class. Likewise, the textbook for a logic and critical thinking class I took had examples of the logical fallacies, argument types, etc. from news articles, television, etc. Both of these things really helped me understand the material. Throughout high school and some of college, the instructors just told us, "Okay, here is what you need to know about *whatever." For example, in government, they told us, "For the test, you need to know that the legislative branch makes laws . . . . " In history, most of them just told us what happened and didn't go into a lot of detail regarding how it all shaped our society.

[Andara Bledin]

We really need to stop with the coddling.

Enough of this feel-good, don't-make-'em-cry bullshit. Stop trying to childproof the world and dumb it down for the lowest common denominator.

We're working to raise a generation of emotionally stunted, intellectually weak pansies.

^-.-^

[Rageaholic]

Since when do schools do this? I didn't have any hot teachers until high school and they were actually the best teachers.

Well maybe you just didn't notice until high school.

why is it that we in the US are STILL using the outdated agricultural calendar for the school year????? my daughter was in a "allyear round school" and did quite well. they had 6 weeks break during the summer and 3 trimesters during the school year with 2 or 3 week breaks inbetween

That doesn't sound too bad. The impression I got from the OP is that kids needed more time in school and that's what I disagree with. There's more to life than school.

I was terrible at writing essays in high school. So much so that I would clam up and just shut down. When I graduated, I vowed "never to do that shit again."

You sound like someone I know. I told him that the USA college system should be like the Aussie college system (they get right down the meat of what you're trying to learn, like I proposed in my OP). He told me "The reason why our college system is set up like that is to see if you're willing to put up with stuff you don't really want to do to obtain an ultimate goal which in this case is a degree. If you drop the prerequisites sure you'll have more enrollments but many of those people will be the lazy types who want the easy way out."

It's typical psuedo psychology, testing folks on things irrelevent to their goal to see if they're qualified. The thinking goes, if they can't do this, they can't do anything. It's bullshit, pure and simple. Jobs unfortunately work the same way. It's all about BSing the person interviewing you. I suck at interviews, but I know I'm good at other things, but they will never know that because all they see is "he sucks at interviews so that means he's a failure at life!".

We also need to get over this idea that everyone needs to go to college. They don't. Everyone should get the training they need for the career they desire. Some of those careers require a bachelor's degree, some require even more education. If your goal in life is to be a plumber, then you need technical certification, not a college degree. And you'll make more money than a lot of people holding Ph.D.s.

I agree, but unfortunately, everyone is expected to have a degree to get any job these days. It's another example of jumping through hoops just to prove yourself.

Looking back on my K-12 schooling, I think a big chunk of the problem is that many classes don't challenge the students to apply what they are learning to their lives. For example, in college, one of my professors (government and social science) required us to follow current news stories based on what we were learning in class. Likewise, the textbook for a logic and critical thinking class I took had examples of the logical fallacies, argument types, etc. from news articles, television, etc. Both of these things really helped me understand the material. Throughout high school and some of college, the instructors just told us, "Okay, here is what you need to know about *whatever." For example, in government, they told us, "For the test, you need to know that the legislative branch makes laws . . . . " In history, most of them just told us what happened and didn't go into a lot of detail regarding how it all shaped our society.

The best instructors I had made the subject relatable to life. The worst ones just forcefed us information for us to remember. There is only so much information I can retain from lectures and textbooks. Some instructors were good lecturers and made it easy to take notes of off, but some also just ramble on and on. The latter never teach me anything other than boredom and confusion.

[Greenday]

Well maybe you just didn't notice until high school.

No, they really weren't. I was on the lookout for women at that point already.

[Lace Neil Singer]

We really need to stop with the coddling.

Enough of this feel-good, don't-make-'em-cry bullshit. Stop trying to childproof the world and dumb it down for the lowest common denominator.

We're working to raise a generation of emotionally stunted, intellectually weak pansies.

^-.-^

Agreed. While I don't know much about American schooling, there was an outcry a few years back over here (and still ongoing!) about exams being dumbed down in order for schools to get more passing grades and look good in the league tables. Fuck that. If Little Miss Thickie spends all her time texting her friends and playing around on Myspace rather than studying for her exams, then she deserves to fail, and suffer the consequences of failing. Making the exams easier so all the thickos can get good grades and not break their little hearts over failing is stupid.

When I took my GCSEs, I got a D in my maths exam cuz I suck at maths. Apparently, by today's standards, that would be an A... and that's not good. O_o Would you want someone who sucks at maths being able to become an accountant later in life and handle your taxes? I know I wouldn't.

[Ginger Tea]

When I took my GCSEs, I got a D in my maths exam cuz I suck at maths. Apparently, by today's standards, that would be an A... and that's not good. O_o Would you want someone who sucks at maths being able to become an accountant later in life and handle your taxes? I know I wouldn't.

I too barely scraped a grade in maths, hell I doubt my skills at 2+2 these days, if I run out of fingers its too many to count.
Basically it started in primory/junior school when our maths teacher decided to give us (or let us use) calculators. My thinking now is, s/he probably thought we weren't going to be much of anything and would work in a supermarket using a cash register as thats like a giant calculator but with cash inside, so when I moved to the next level the damage had been done, secondary schools were made up of different junior schools, I recall only 3 from mine, myself included, so we all had different levels of skill in each subject depending on who or how we were teached.

I'm 36 now (I think) and I kid you not I only know this if I take the year I was born away from the current year on a calculator. There is a great big hole in my head where basic maths skills should be, instead I think its full of porn (although now I think I'll be having the Count counting off random bits to my next clip ... )

and because I'm white and English, it was automatically assumed I would be a Christian or derivitive of some form and not need to be taught about the bible, so in RE I found out about other beliefs current and obsolete, I forgot more about Hinduism than I ever knew about Christianity, I honestly believed Jesus had to be the son of God if he was born at Christmas and died at Easter, no one told me of the 30 years inbetween, I just assumed he grew up real quick like in Starman and the rest I knew from Jesus Christ Superstar, that my dad had on VHS although I did ask my father why they left him in the desert at the end of the film and the Charlton Heston movie "the bible"

[Ipecac Drano]

Before anything else is done, the Number One Thing that Americans need to be taught is critical thinking. They need to keep their emotions in check as there are too many who don't "like to be told to do anything" or deny facts and proof just because it doesn't fit in with their feelings.

[Mytical]

The old adage of use it or lose it is more true then some realize. At one time I was a human calculator. Often even figuring up large numbers before some people with an actual calculator could. Calculus in 9th grade, etc. After 15 years or so of not using it, however, I told an intermediate algebra course and got a C.

Went on to the next quarter, took a more advance math class and aced it. Math was always my strongest subject, with English being my weakest (followed closely by spelling. Sometimes I wouldn't know a verb from an noun if they both came up and slapped my face *embarrassed*). I will say however, that although I can't SPELL half of the words, I do have a very large vocabulary .

Why was I so good with numbers? I learned numbers BEFORE I could walk (and I was walking according to my parents very early). My father would take numbers, write them on tiny pieces of paper and tape them to my fingers and toes. Before I even saw the inside of a school, I knew how to count to 100 by 1, 5's and tens. I knew my multiplication table from 1x1 to 10x10. He made absolute sure of that.

Somebody said it already, and they are right. Start teaching when they are young. Don't baby talk them..teach them.

[Ipecac Drano]

The old adage of use it or lose it is more true then some realize. At one time I was a human calculator. Often even figuring up large numbers before some people with an actual calculator could. Calculus in 9th grade, etc. After 15 years or so of not using it, however, I told an intermediate algebra course and got a C.

Went on to the next quarter, took a more advance math class and aced it. Math was always my strongest subject, with English being my weakest (followed closely by spelling. Sometimes I wouldn't know a verb from an noun if they both came up and slapped my face *embarrassed*). I will say however, that although I can't SPELL half of the words, I do have a very large vocabulary .

Why was I so good with numbers? I learned numbers BEFORE I could walk (and I was walking according to my parents very early). My father would take numbers, write them on tiny pieces of paper and tape them to my fingers and toes. Before I even saw the inside of a school, I knew how to count to 100 by 1, 5's and tens. I knew my multiplication table from 1x1 to 10x10. He made absolute sure of that.

Somebody said it already, and they are right. Start teaching when they are young. Don't baby talk them..teach them.

And before you can get the kids to learn something they have to be interested. Keeping their minds off of being solely entertained will help with what you propose.

[ExRetailDrone]

The old adage of use it or lose it is more true then some realize.

I totally agree with you. I used to be really good at math when I was in school. Probably helped that my mom was a high school math teacher, so if I had any difficulties, I had an at-home tutor. I also used to sit in on some of her tutoring sessions with her students when I was in middle school, so by the time I got to high school, I already knew a lot of the stuff I would be learning, at least the basics.

Now, I haven't regularly used most math in over a decade. I'm lucky I still remember the Pythagorean Theory or how to add fractions. For one of my current jobs, I had to take this test, which had a lot of fairly basic math problems on it (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions, some Algebra), and I struggled with it. I remembered enough to pass the test and get hired, but it was still a bit of a deflating experience.

As for teaching children when they're young, I am a complete proponent! My mom spent tons of time teaching me things in the years before kindergarten. Some of the things I don't even remember, I only know about from stories she's told me. I guess when I was really small, she would read to me all the time, and as she was reading she would point along with her finger so I could start making the connection between how a word was spelled and pronounced. When I was 4, she would take me to her aerobics classes, and I guess she had numerous other women in the class with her mention how well-behaved I was because I would sit to the side and read for the entire time. I'm not sure if I was reading or mainly looking at the pictures, but either way, it kept me entertained. When I got older, I grew to love reading more and more. When I was in elementary and middle school, I could be reading up to 3 books at a time. I'm too scattered to even think of doing that anymore, but I still love to read.

My mom also taught me research skills from an early age. Whenever we came across something that I didn't understand or we both were unaware of, we would head to the bookcases (where my parents kept a large collection of research books such as an encyclopedia set and sets of Time Life books) and look up whatever the subject was. That usually spawned hours of looking other things up due to tangents in whatever we originally found. It was great! And I got to spend some quality time with my mom all at the same time. By doing this, she also instilled in me a lifetime love of learning.

I wish that more parents seemed to take a more active role in their child's learning from birth. I've personally witnessed too many times a parent just plopping their toddler down in front of the TV or a video game to keep him/her occupied. I'm not saying it's bad to ever do that, but it seems to happen way too often. Hell, I loved watching TV and movies with my folks when I was growing up, but they didn't use those things as a babysitter. Rather, they used them more as a different type of bonding experience with me. I have fond memories of watching action shows and horror movies with my dad, and comedies with both of my parents. I also have fond memories of playing board games with my mom and having my parents take me for walks and out skiing behind my grandparents' house. I think it's all about balance, as with most things.

Of course, not all parents are lacking in personal bonding, but it seems to me that's it's been getting worse and worse as the years go on and technology improves. Too many people just don't want to deal with their responsibilities, and that just ends up being unfair to the kids. A friend of mine seems to spend more time playing games on Facebook than paying attention to her daughter, and now that her daughter is in school she keeps acting out and getting in trouble. And she's only 5 or 6

[Arcade Man D]

All the gen ed stuff is what's turning me off from going back to school. I'm sorry, but if you require me to take physics and advanced math, I'm gonna fail. I couldn't do that stuff before, what makes anyone think I'm gonna magically succeed at it now?

Where are you looking at that physics and advanced math are required for Gen Ed? I've never seen a Gen Ed requirement more stringent than "credit-level math" (aka not a remedial, and algebra is generally a low 100s math now) and "hard science" (meaning Physics, Chem, Bio, Geology, or possibly Astronomy/Meteorology).

Advanced Math doesn't start until (Pre-)Calculus/Statistics. And I've only ever seen those required as part of a degree program in a related field.

[Eisa]

Statistics is required for my major, at least here [my major's psychology]. And yeah, you have to do a hard science, but it can be chemistry, physics, geology, or astronomy. And it's not like you have to go far in it, by any means.

That said, I still did awful at Chemistry lol.

[Rageaholic]

I remember doing very well in math when I was young. At that point, I was actually interested in learning about the world. My curiousity was what kept me going. I think school does a good job at crushing that curiousity because from what I remember of elementary school, it was less learning and more "do what the teacher says". I mean shit, isn't most of school just "doing work"? I'm not saying you can't learn anything that way, but a lot of that work was simply filler.

[Andara Bledin]

My curiousity was what kept me going. I think school does a good job at crushing that curiousity because from what I remember of elementary school, it was less learning and more "do what the teacher says".

This is what we call an industrial society teaching agenda, which is more about training the young to work in an industrial setting.

Unfortunately, while we still have a lot of industry, the world's moved on into the information age, and we are decades behind in getting our schools' curricula adjusted to reflect that fact, and the longer we dawdle with outmoded teaching styles and topics, the harder it will be to effect that change, and the further behind we'll fall.

^-.-^