War on Drugs

[Rapscallion]

Legalize many of the drugs and you will see a REDUCTION in crime. not a higher crime rate.

Well, yes. There would be far fewer people prosecuted for taking drugs, for a start.

Rapscallion

[rahmota]

By jailing addicts we *are* protecting society

Why does society need protecting? Is it more valuable than the individual? Is it more important than the individual or is it made up of the individual points of view and attitudes. I think society would do just fine if we reduced the importance on blind obedience to a set of laws that remove personal freedom, liberty and independence.

I wasn't trying to arrest him. I merely asked him what he was doing, he was in the street, in a car with no window with the door open holding a car stereo in one hand and the stereo cage in the other. THEN he went nuts.

Okay that is a different ball of wax from an 60 year old cancer patient toking calmly on a joint to help ease the pain from their chemo/radiation/cancer. That guy was already in a position that was not exactly defensible.

The CS part, (one example of many) two of my collegues were sent to an aggresive male who was kicking (very hard) a door with a terrified woman and her kids indoors, the only way to subdue the male was to use the spray. You mention that you know your boss will react 'oddly' (for want of a better word), how does a random member of the public know this?

Okay dude was already violent. Not a good example as someone who is already violent is not going to be suddenly deciding to calm down when the popo show up you know?
Show me the person who was sitting at home doing lines or smoking a joint and then suddenly freaked out and became violent with no provocation. Then we have something to discus. the two examples you used where not good ones to bouy your side IMO.

As for my former boss aside fr his power walks when he was high there was no real way to tell frm his behavior or attitude that he was high. he was not violent (at least not any more so than a new/used car manager under a boatload of stress dealing with sucky customers.) he was not really dangerous and as for his driving he drove like a freaking race car lunatic high or sober. So I was equally freaked by his driving.

how does a random member of the public know this?

How does a random member of the public know the kitten loving old guy next to you on the bus isnt a PTSD shell shocked veteran of combat that is off his meds and will snap your neck at the next car backfiring thinking you're charlie or somethign? How do you know the yuppie coming at the crosswalk hasnt dropped their latte on their lap while chatting on the cell phone and wont run you down. Thing is you dont. So either A: you dont worry about it and go on with your life defensively but not paranoid. or B: You freak out try to get the government to pass nanny state laws enacting nerfworld to protect people from themselves and all the horrible what ifs there are out there. Personally I'll go with A.

Nicotine IS dangerous,

Well uh yeah. Duh. But did you know that it only makes up less than 3% chemical composition in most tobacco breeds? That it is also found in chocolate, tomatos and potatos? Smoking one cigarette gives you less than 1 milligram of nicotine. Did you know nicotine can be used to treat ADHD? Did you also know that Nicotine can interfere in certain types of cancers (while helping others yes)
Yes it is a stimulant so is caffiene. So is sugar. A lot of chemical compounds are dangerous. I am not arguing that. What I am arguing is that a person who is a consenting adult has the right to endanger their bodies. Regardless of bad genetics or not.

I am fully aware of the drug laws here, if your found with a joint, hell even a few 8 bags you will probably get an on street caution, you won't be arrested, you won't be hauled into court. As long as its your first time.

Hmm really? The guy before me in court was before the judge for the first time and had under a pound of weed. You know what sentencing he got? Asset forfeture. 3 years prison. 2 years suspended. 5 years probation and some other stuff I wasnt payign that close attention to along with some heavy fines that if he didnt pay he goes to jail until he pays (which is really sucky and stupid as how are they going to pay if they are in jail and then he'll have the rent the jail charges inmates for their time in on top of that.) And the judge was yelling at the guy to be happy he let him off so lightly for a first offender. Then again the judge was up for reelection.

No, I have no desire to inhale a mix of chemicals of dubious origin and unknown results.

Ah you mean the herbal plant cannibas sativa. Known since the dawn of time and smoked, chewed or otherwise ingested for the pleasant mind altering or pain numbing affects. Mentioned in several religious texts of the day. In its pure form no more dangerous than wheat, hops, corn or Tobacco. And while there are cases of people lacing or otherwise coating mary legalizing it and imposing strict regulations such as what is required for the purity controls of tobacco would reduce that to nothing.
And you must not breathe in the city much then either eh?

If they have been shooting up in an alley next to a college for ten years and leaving their dirty needles lying around, even though there is a needle exchange programme? What is thats a school, a kindergarten, a nursery? How does that affect your opinion (the location I mean)?

That would get me irritated at them for being litterbugs as I also get bent about people throwing any form of garbage like that around. But you know what in the past 15 years of hking, urban exploration, dumpster diving, working in a detail shop for 3 years I have found a sum total of probably about 5 needles of unknown origin. I know I do not see them "strewn about" or anything. Even when I go to town or the city I dont see that. So either they dont do it or they are conscientious enough to pick up after themselves or do it somewhere away from the public. All not my problem. Mostly what I find are beer bottles and cans. Which promtly get picked up and placed in the recycle bin until i get enough to take in and donate to my personal fun fund. So its a win win for me at least.

I would never support jailing someone on a 'jut in case' basis

Well thats good you feel that. Last time I checked thoughtcrime wasnt a real think and predicting the future is still a bit problematic right now.

with the exception of severe mental health issues where the person is not in control of their actions and cannot see why those actions are unnaceptable

Well this is kinda of a grey area. Who would get to decide if the person was not in control, if their actions where harmful and what and why those actions are unacceptable. I certainly wouldnt want government or any agents to determine that about me.

Druge treatment is, although free here (in the UK), very sparsly funded, I would rather see people get off drugs than go into prison, but when somone has walked out of drug treatment programmes more times than I can count I can't see an alternitive when they still committing offences.

I can see an alternative. Only arrest them when they actually commit a crime other than drug usage, possession or selling. Hey that makes sense doesnt it? So of course government isnt going to do something that smart.

needles require specialist equipment and disposal

I guess the ones we found at the dealership we just pulled out of the car carefully and pitched them in the garbage with the tip wrapped in duct tape or tossed in a pop bottle or something. Since it happened so rarely there was no real procedure to follow (like it would be followed anyhow)

This means that those who want to come off drugs can, but those who don't get punished for it, I see that as fair.

yeah but the thing is if the ONLY crime they ever commit is smoking weed or doing a drug then how is it fair? they are not commiting a violent crime, they are not commiting a crime in which there is a victim. As long as they are a consentign free willed adult they should be left alone to smoke, ingest or inject whatever makes them happy.

I suspect that if we examined our foreign policy as far as countries where the base ingredients are grown, we could probably have a bigger impact in helping farmers be able to sell a more healthy cash crop that would fuel above-the-table economies instead of lining the pockets of drug lords like they are now

I am sure that if you looked closely into the flow of govt funds into drug producing nations you would find some very interesting things.

Well, yes. There would be far fewer people prosecuted for taking drugs, for a start.

Well there is that. hehe.

[Seshat]

However, if an adult doesn't want to wear a seatbelt, why should they be legally required to? The only person in danger is themselves if they get into an accident.

Incorrect.

An unrestrained person in an accident is a lethal missile to others in the vehicle with them, and will often cause those others (even if restrained) severe injury. Also, if the unrestrained person is thrown out of the vehicle, anyone in range can be hit by a body, with huge impact forces. And being thrown through the windscreen is not uncommon.

(The force calculation is mass * acceleration - in this case, the change in velocity is speed-of-travel minus zero, so the acceleration is speed-of-travel squared. The mass is, of course, the weight of the person.)

Also, if you get seriously injured, who's going to be upset by it? Everyone you love. Who's going to have to look after you? Again, the people you love. You're not taking risks just for yourself, you're taking risks for your loved ones. It's never just you that you're affecting.


Back on topic: Marijuana

The cannibinoids - tetrahydrocannibinol (THC) and cannabidiol (CBD) are available as prescription drugs under the names Sativex and Marinol. Marinol has THC only, Sativex has both. Research pharmacists are still working on marijuana, teasing out the other useful chemicals it has.

The difference between taking THC and/or CBD as a prescription drug and taking it directly from the plant is actually quite profound. As a prescription drug, you know the exact dosage (to within milligrams) you're taking, you know (or can easily find out) the other substances in what you're ingesting, and you know you're not taking more psychoactives than you need.
Taken directly from the plant, you're ingesting CBD even if what you want is only THC. Or vice versa. You're ingesting the various other psychoactives that are being studied by the research pharmacists. You're also ingesting whatever herbicides or insecticides were used on the plant and not sufficiently washed off. You're ingesting assorted bits of plant matter - though most of those don't matter, and if it was a lettuce leaf, you'd call it 'food'. If you're smoking it, you're ingesting lung irritants caused by the burning process.

I feel the same way about alcohol and nicotine, by the way: taken carefully and mindfully, in known dosages and known quality and with known carriers, I'm cool with it. But I'd rather chew a carefully-derived stick of nicotine gum than smoke a tobacco leaf. I know that the tobacco leaf contains substances I don't want to ingest - I'd rather just have the nicotine. As for opiates - give me my nice, safe tramadol and leave the poppy juice in the lab to get refined!

On the other hand, I'd rather eat a nice sandwich made with wholegrain bread and spinach leaves and mature cheese than eat a multivitamin pill. But then, wheat, spinach and cheese don't contain the same sort of psychoactive and physiologically-active substances that tobacco or marijuana - or poppies - do.


All that said, I'm on the fence about regulating access to refined drugs. You can do a hell of a lot of damage with them, but what about people who are genuinely capable of learning enough about them to take them carefully and mindfully?
And what about people who are in so much pain that it doesn't matter if they get addicted to refined opiates: they're disabled from the pain or they're capable-but-addicted. (And yes, in pre-tramadol days, I'd be one of those. Fortunately, tramadol seems so far to be non-addictive. Yay!)

I have no answers to these problems, just questions.

[crazylegs]

Okay dude was already violent. Not a good example as someone who is already violent is not going to be suddenly deciding to calm down when the popo show up you know?
Show me the person who was sitting at home doing lines or smoking a joint and then suddenly freaked out and became violent with no provocation. Then we have something to discus. the two examples you used where not good ones to bouy your side IMO.

I don't think I'm explaining myself well, the chap when not high is ok to deal with, no issues, polite, calm, compliant, no issues. As soon as a line of cocaine goes up his nose you better be somewhere else or have a bigger stick than he has.

Hmm really?

Yes really, I image that the UK and US have different legal systems, especially as our judges are not elected and therefore don't have political interference in their sentencing should it go that far.

And you must not breathe in the city much then either eh?

As the contents of this countries air are publiscised, quality, pollutants that sort of thing I can make informed consent as to whether or not I stay here, and as it is, I do.

But you know what in the past 15 years of hking, urban exploration, dumpster diving, working in a detail shop for 3 years I have found a sum total of probably about 5 needles of unknown origin. I know I do not see them "strewn about" or anything.

Then all I can say is that you're very lucky, in the town next to mine there are real problems with needles, they are everywhere you can reach, post boxes, drains, air conditioning units, on the top of walls, in alleys, in fire exits, randomly left in kids play areas, sports fields. So yes, its a problem.

Well thats good you feel that. Last time I checked thoughtcrime wasnt a real think and predicting the future is still a bit problematic right now.

Well at least we can agree on something!

Well this is kinda of a grey area. Who would get to decide if the person was not in control, if their actions where harmful and what and why those actions are unacceptable.

If a psychiatrist is concerned enough that someone is acting out what 'voices' in their head are telling them to do, and each act is getting more violent then I'd rather they were incarcerated to receive treatment, as is permitted under the Mental Health Act.

I can see an alternative. Only arrest them when they actually commit a crime other than drug usage, possession or selling.

The majority of users I see in cells (after being arrested that is) ARE arrested for other offences, such as theft, burglary, car crime etc. Mostl because they are addicted and need to feed their habit. Even if drugs were legal/decriminilised the drugs would still need to be paid for somehow, and addicts would still need to aquire money from whatever source to obtain said drug.

I guess the ones we found at the dealership we just pulled out of the car carefully and pitched them in the garbage with the tip wrapped in duct tape or tossed in a pop bottle or something. Since it happened so rarely there was no real procedure to follow (like it would be followed anyhow)

A security guard in the town I work had a needle stick injury two weeks ago. They now have to undergo 6 months of tests, prevention treatment and worry about if/what they have caught and how it will effect their life. In addition to that there is the strain on his SO and the rest of his family, so please if you do find a needle, if only for you own sake get them into a sharps bin (available from most chemists) and use tongs/grabbers rather than your hands, hell pliers work in a pinch.

Society does need protecting, society is all of us, it also makes financial sense, would you rather your tax money goes into clearing needles/treating related injuries or preventing their flow into society in the first place.

[rahmota]

I don't think I'm explaining myself well, the chap when not high is ok to deal with, no issues, polite, calm, compliant, no issues. As soon as a line of cocaine goes up his nose you better be somewhere else or have a bigger stick than he has.

That was him. I know people that get a few beers in them they turn into a bear. I know a few people that have a freakin bad day and they go off on the slightest thing. I also know people who when high become the biggest fuzzball kitten and you could poke them with a stick and they wouldnt do anythign. It depends on the individual a lot and the circumstances involved in them.

As the contents of this countries air are publiscised, quality, pollutants that sort of thing I can make informed consent as to whether or not I stay here, and as it is, I do.

And if mary or another drug where legal and subject to production regulations and quality control then there would be the informed consent as well for that.

Even if drugs were legal/decriminilised the drugs would still need to be paid for somehow, and addicts would still need to aquire money from whatever source to obtain said drug.

Well if drugs where legal their price would come down. People would be able to use legal funds and sources to obtain said drugs like their cigs. Thefts and other related crimes would go down.

so please if you do find a needle, if only for you own sake get them into a sharps bin (available from most chemists)

Well when I worked for them sicne there was no problem with needles the company wouldnt pay for a sharps bin and I sure wasnt payign out of pocket for somethign that would be useless 99.9% of the time. We just didnt have enough of a stray needle problem to warrent that.

Society does need protecting, society is all of us, it also makes financial sense, would you rather your tax money goes into clearing needles/treating related injuries or preventing their flow into society in the first place.

Society as a whole does not need protecting at the expensse of individual freedoms. Since society is made up of the collective individual people working in a common or nearly common goal of their own free will then society is better protected by protecting and empowering the individual at the expense of the collective body politic. And I would rather see my tax money being used to help remove poverty, provide unuversal health care and help increase the quality and availability of individuals lives. Not chasing some wasteful overzealous moralist nerf world nanny state borg collective mindcrime like the "war on drugs" If I wa sin charge of fundign the war on drugs would ahve a 0 funding budget for the next 500 centuries and drugs would be legalized and taxed. Then again I'd also get rid of any law that was based only on one narrow religious or other moral principles and make such laws illegal.

[FashionLad]

Without reading the bulk of posts made. Man, you guys have a lot to say...

I can say that I do strongly oppose the war on drugs. I think we spend too much money on it, and it's ineffective. Of course on that same token, I'm very much opposed to almost anything that my tax dollars are being used for.

I guess I could go with meth, cocaine, heroin and drugs like that being illegal, but Marijuana. I smoked a lot of pot as a teenager, I got arrested for posession. Not a cool thing.

But, I was honor student. I didn't get into much trouble in high school until after I got busted. (I got busted when I was 16.) The city paid a lot of money to "rehab" me. Was a I threat to anyone? No. I smoked at home or at friends' houses. The pot I bought was home-grown right in the great state of Minnesota, so, I wasn't supporting terroristic activities or large crime. I was just a kid who wanted to get high, often. Marijuana isn't a gateway drug.

Imagine if we just legalized marijuana and taxed it. Not only would our country be saving money, it'd also be making money.

Marijuana also has some great medicinel beneits. Shrinking tumors. Relieving pain. Encouraging appetite.

[CancelMyService]

Personally I think the drug war has been a waste of money, and was probably only started to prop up US sponsored puppet governments in South America.

I know more than one person who was a cancer patient or otherwise dealing with severe pain and the only thing that helped them was smoking a joint. Even if it ends up not being scientifically proven, what's wrong with allowing someone with a terminal disease to smoke up? It's not like they have a lot left.

If weed was legal, then people who smoke wouldn't have to go to dealers that had an economic interest in getting people into higher profit drugs. It's only a gateway when you buy from someone who wants to "upsell".

A funny aside is as a wrestling fan, it gives me an unusual perception of drug use as almost all of the top wrestlers in the 80s were using cocaine (sorry if that ruined any childhood memories). In the grand scheme of things, it turned out blow was probably the least harmful drug they were using. It its kind of funny to watch tapes of shows I watched as a kid and see how many guys were obviously coked out of their freaking minds.