Don't let the door hitcha in the ass on the way out! (Death penalty)

[Seshat]

death after the fact is revenge, pure and simple

Euthanasia excepted, society killing someone who has not committed a crime and who cannot be determined as (sufficiently) likely to do so is unwarranted.

However, society killing someone who has killed/raped/tortured in a way which makes it clear he is likely to kill/rape/torture again is a preventative measure, protecting his future victims.

(As stated in my previous posts, we can't yet prove or predict criminality enough for me to believe the death sentence is warranted. Yet.)

[tropicsgoddess]

Death Penalty

I believe in an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. It's not fair that somebody who murdered an innocent person is still alive while the victim is dead. It may cost more to execute death row inmates than it would to keep them incarcerated for life, but I honestly would rather have my tax dollars put towards executing criminals so they can't hurt anybody else anymore.

[unholypet]

I agree with death penalty. I don't think its biased on a certain racial group, or because of Republicans, or of Bush.

You know why?

Statistis don't lie, and there are a million for everything anymore. Too many variables, and too much grey area.

You guys have yet to mention that a judge, jury, DA, and the courtroom participants decide what happen.

They may not be right every time, but its huma error that can or cannot prove something beyond the shadow of doubt. Its human error we may not have the science to prove things, why haven't we thought of/invented it?
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An eye for an eye, etc. has been used a lot here. Its worked much longer than our curren civilization has been around, you are treated as you treat others.

That's why we have courts, and the justice system. It takes a while, because it takes THAT many people to pull something off. The majority rule on opinion and belief, because you can't make 100% happy anywhere.

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I have family that's been mind-raped, and its an awful thing to see. The bastard that did it got away with it, because he is a church official. How is that fair?

If you; mentally scar a woman so that she is unable to take a shower in her own home without locking every door and window, shutting all the blinds, turning off all lights, and having her family watch out for noises around the bathroom. He called the house with an untracable line, and terrorized her an her family for months, despite what the police were allowed to do.

This guy was only found because he couldn't resist peeking in a window at her the one night she tries to be brave and shower home alone. The cops didn't respond fast enough to grab him there, but did find him a block away.

The kicker? This was 15yrs ago, and she is still scared. This freak was let loose, and ended up raping a woman down the road from his first victim.

He's free again, and is reported running from police, STILL doing this to women.

How is that fair?

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Lastly, what about over population? Its helping our planet to cut back on some of the stress its under. We're no more than animals, and we're the top of the food chain. There's nothing to keep us under conrol but each other.

Why not get rid of the proven bad apples, to try and keep the shiny apples shiny?

[blas87]

unholypet, I am so sorry that happened. I am definetly with you on this issue.

[Seshat]

Statistis don't lie, and there are a million for everything anymore. Too many variables, and too much grey area.

Statistics don't lie, but can mislead. If 100% of people surveyed say one thing - but only people attending a conference about that thing were surveyed, the statistic is misleading.

However, that's a side issue.

You guys have yet to mention that a judge, jury, DA, and the courtroom participants decide what happen.

I think we did, but as an unspoken assumption that was part of the 'human error' and 'reasonable doubt' discussions.

They may not be right every time, but its huma error that can or cannot prove something beyond the shadow of doubt. Its human error we may not have the science to prove things, why haven't we thought of/invented it?

We're working on it. There are a lot of people researching attempts to prove the issues more and more.

The Law And Order set of TV series' are fictionalised, but present many of the dilemnas of proof quite well.

An eye for an eye, etc. has been used a lot here.

And can easily lead to feuds.

I have family that's been mind-raped, and its an awful thing to see. The bastard that did it got away with it, because he is a church official. How is that fair?

It isn't. That's a remaining aspect of 'might makes right', which we haven't eliminated yet.

The kicker? This was 15yrs ago, and she is still scared. This freak was let loose, and ended up raping a woman down the road from his first victim.

He's free again, and is reported running from police, STILL doing this to women.

How is that fair?

That's why I'm in favour of locking up people who have committed violent/dangerous crimes and are, in the best judgement of specialists, likely to continue to do so.

I'm not in favour of the death penalty until our accuracy of determining guilt or innocence is greatly increased. When it's closer to 100%, then I'd be in favour of simply killing these people.

Lastly, what about over population? Its helping our planet to cut back on some of the stress its under. We're no more than animals, and we're the top of the food chain. There's nothing to keep us under conrol but each other.

Why not get rid of the proven bad apples, to try and keep the shiny apples shiny?

Because at present they're not proven to be the bad apples, we're not doing any better than educated guesses.

As for overpopulation: I prefer reducing population at pre-birth. Pre-conception, if possible. I'm strongly in favour of educating women, and providing effective, cheap, and as-harmless-as-possible reversible contraception to everyone at puberty. Which is probably a different thread, but that's my preferred population-reduction method.

Of course, if we keep building cities on the slopes of active volcanoes, in earthquake zones, and so on, we'll have catastrophic reductions. And there's multiply resistant tuberculosis in the wings, and other such threats. We're overdue for a catastrophic reduction worse than the Indian Ocean tsunami.

[Boozy]

Lastly, what about over population?

I do not care for this argument for the death penalty. The thought that we can cure overpopulation by killing the "undesirables" is a frightening idea.

Certainly, we can't be placing value on human life according to how much space and resources we have available.

[AFPheonix]

Not to mention we don't execute nearly enough people in this country to actually make a dent in overpopulation.

No one that's against the death penalty in this thread is for parole for inappropriate people. We just think that locking those people up for life is sufficient. As for jail overpopulation, well, that's due less to violent offenders than it is to non-violent drug offenders, victims of our shitty war on drugs.

[Seshat]

I do not care for this argument for the death penalty. The thought that we can cure overpopulation by killing the "undesirables" is a frightening idea.

I'm disabled. Do I need to mention my instinctive reaction to this idea?

[IDrinkaRum]

Please do not shoot me for this, but it's a relative "joke" on how one can tell the difference between Democrats & Republicans:

Democrats allow abortion to get rid of the "undesirables" right away.

Republicans say "Wait until they are born, grown up, and when they f^&k up, then we get rid of them."

Ahem, I'll now go back into the corner and hide.

[machinest]

I think that as another problem the idea that their are "things that people deserve to die for "can bleed over into the general society and the less stable members of that society are more inclined to take matters into their own hands.

[unholypet]

I'm disabled. Do I need to mention my instinctive reaction to this idea?

"Undesirables" to me, are cold-blooded killers, rapists, and the like.

Disability has nothing to do with being an "undesirable."

[DesignFox]

Well, after reading Kara's post and looking up the Carr brothers... Those are two men that deserve what's coming to them.

Link to the thread is below for those who may have missed it. She warns that it is not safe for work.

http://www.customerssuck.com/board/s...ad.php?t=27222

[BlaqueKatt]

I haven't researched it, but from what I'm told, it is actually more expensive to execute someone than let them drag on in prison for life.

Proving someone is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, going through mutliple appeals, etc. etc. drives up the cost of executions.

I have researched it and you are correct-A Duke University study found... "The death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life.

Florida calculated that each execution there costs some $3.18 million. If incarceration is estimated to cost $17000/year, a comparable statistic for life in prison of 40 years would be $680,000."

source

this is not what I used for my own personal research but it was easy to find

"A 1987 study presented evidence that 350 people convicted of capital crimes in the USA between 1900 and 1985 were innocent of the crimes charged. In most cases the discovery of new evidence resulted in acquittal, pardon, commutation of sentence or dismissal of charges, often years after the original conviction. Some prisoners escaped execution by minutes, but 23 were actually executed."---Stanford Law Review, vol. 40, No. 1, November 1987, pages 21-179.

[BlaqueKatt]

he can't kill cause he is dead, that's not a deterant, it didn't stop him the first time. I bet he did know about it but it didn't stop him

death after the fact is revenge, pure and simple

I totally agree with this-Of the 16 states that have higher than average murder rates-15 have the death penalty-how's that deterrent working for you?

[DesignFox]

Disturbing! Don't read if squeamish!

Well, it doesn't really matter what I think- my state did away with the death penalty not too long ago...

But, there are some very rare cases where I think it would be appropriate.

(the following is really disturbing...I probably should warn you of that in case any of you are sensitive)

Anyone heard of the Phoenix Strangler?

http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/cr...er/index.shtml

Crazy Mo-Fo.

Probably should be executed, but at least they locked him away for life with no parole. (his sentence is for 504 years, I believe.)

He's pure psycho. There is something seriously wrong with his psyche. I don't see a point in keeping him around. And there's no doubt in this case. It's him. He's guilty.

THOSE are the kind of crimes I feel warrant the death penalty.

Not spur of the moment or single isolated incidents.

In the case of this guy... he will NEVER be rehabilitated, and I wouldn't even want to take the chance that he or any criminal like that might escape prison...