Honor-killing murder trial starting in Arizona

[Boozy]

I'm never afraid to admit when I'm wrong.

Cookies awarded!

I wish more of our members were able to graciously concede a point.

Added mod note: Because crashhelmet has already conceded the point, it's time to move on. There's no need to beat a dead horse.

[Racket_Man]

this sounds a LOT like a situation that occured with me.

Back in the early 1990's after Communism, the Iron curtain, the Berlin Wall and Russia fell apart, people from the Eastern Block countries moved here to America. now most of these where just ordinary folks but some were higher ups in their respective countires Communist parties (think MEGA EW).

I do not remember the specifics but a child of one of these former "party" memebers" was bullying our daughter and my now Ex stepped in and tried to put a stop to it. the kid did not like that and went to tattle to Daddy.

Daddy came out of the apt and essentially publicly threatened to have my Ex, me and my daughter killed for "daring" to stop his kid from doing anything he wanted. after expressing this another person (I assume a fellow former party member) had a long PUBLIC conversation with Daddy.

the conversation went something like this:

HEY DUMBASS. we are NO longer in <country> and you are NO LONGER a priviliaged and untouchable member of society and <party>. what you just did WILL get you arrested and thrown in jail. quit making us look bad. get your stuff together and learn about THIS country and its LAWS and PUNISHMENT. you are just n ordinary person NOW.

[Amanita]

I remember reading an article in a Toronto-based newspaper about immigrant men coming to Canada, and running afoul of child and domestic abuse laws. In their own countries and cultures, it was considered normal, even acceptable to hit one's wife and kids. (No, I don't mean spanking). Unfortunately they didn't understand that we don't roll that way in Canada. I'm sure some of them claimed a cultural right to do as they pleased- "It's how we do things in (our culture), quit interfering!"
But others were genuinely horrified when they learned that they had broken Canadian law, and were facing punishment. They were genuinely afraid that they and their families would be deported. For this group of offenders, there was an organization set up to help them and their families. Help the men navigate their new country's legal system, learn the laws and customs of Canada, and to help them and their families learn alternative means of discipline and conflict resolution, so that there would be no future problems.
I have to admit, I liked that idea- helping those who want to learn to fit in and become good citizens, where their "old country" way of doing things butts heads with our own.

[Rageaholic]

I think honor killings are bad enough even within the context of the culture. Either way you look at it, it's murder, over cultural differences. "It's part of their culture" is not a justification for murdering someone, especially since this asshole was in America.

[Cata]

Even if the original premise (that the honor killings are a Muslim practice) were accurate, that still wouldn't make it legal in the US. Religion is not an impenetrable defense for the commission of crimes - the law still rules.

Take, for example, the relatively benign practice of proselytizing. Preaching to random people is generally harmless. But if you were to march into some other religion's church-equivalents during a religious service, you would be asked to leave. If you refused to leave, the police would be called, and you would be arrested for trespassing - the fact that you were doing what your religion commands is irrelevant to the fact that by staying after being asked to leave, you committed a crime.

[draco664]

I'm never afraid to admit when I'm wrong.

An affliction so rare it is on the verge of being classified as a superpower.

[wolfie]

The article didn't say when he moved to the U.S., but it was obviously long enough ago that his daughter had time to pick up the prevailing culture. Since she was 20 years old, and the story said he moved with his family, I'm guessing that it was after she was born. The killing happened in 2009 (i.e. after Obama took office), meaning that he has been in the U.S. during the term of at least one controversial president, and possibly more.

He was 50 years old, and came from Iraq. Clearly, he was an adult in Iraq while Saddam Hussein was ruler.

From these, it's plain that he's seen that some things are OK in the U.S. but not in Iraq (i.e. people being openly critical of the President without being shot or "disappeared"). Since this clearly shows that "we do things differently here than back home", he should realize that this goes both ways (i.e. some things that are tolerated in Iraq are definitely not O.K. in the U.S.).

[tabbyblack13]

When it was first aired in AZ, there was a lot of uproar about it. I heard about it on the Phoenix news for at least a month after he did it. After what happened a lot of people said the same similar statements as I am seeing here.

The fact of the matter is murder is murder. Your religion or country you immigrated from doesn't keep you from being prosecuted. If you killed someone because you wanted to, that is murder.

I think the father murdered her because she wasn't going to do what he wanted her to do. I heard that there was an arraigned marriage for her back in their home country (I don't remember which one it was). She didn't want it and ended up finding a boyfriend and another family that she wanted to be apart of. That is probably what sent him over the "edge" so to speak.

[macphile]

I just know that these so-called "honor" killings are just going to add fuel to the anti-Muslim fire in this country.

As was pointed out, tons of Muslims don't follow these kinds of practices--or many of the practices that westerners currently like to ascribe to Islam. Various countries in Africa have substantial Muslim populations--I think one of my sponsored children was Muslim--and you'd pretty much never know it to look at them, as they don't fit this stereotype of what a Muslim "is." Islam is a religion like any other, with its liberals, moderates, conservatives, and certifiable nutjobs.

Anyway, even if it's totally OK or even encouraged "back home," this isn't "back home." Religious equality doesn't begin to enter into it. The courts way one's religious rights against other people's rights. The Amish didn't like their children being forced to attend school for years on end when they were needed to work on the farm, and the court decided on a compromise--only through 8th grade--so the kids got some fundamental education and the religion/culture's practices were still being considered. Santerians can sacrifice animals as long as it's done humanely.

But I can't imagine a case where a court would decide that one's religious belief trumped someone else's right to life. I mean, that one's pretty darned untouchable.

And he'd have to be an unbelievable moron to not realize that this practice is a no-no in the US. As a matter of fact, I don't think he was. I think he got super-pissed and reacted and is now having to come up with some manner of defense in court. The end. I don't know if this restored his precious honor, but if so, I guess that can keep him warm at night in prison.

[Megg]

The part of this story that bugs the daylights out of me is this: he felt she was becoming to "westernized" ... so he ran her over with a Jeep. He's not "westernized" at all, driving a Jeep - oh no!

I hope they throw the book at him. My heart goes out to the boyfriend and his family - how hard this must be for him!

[Talon]

I just know that these so-called "honor" killings are just going to add fuel to the anti-Muslim fire in this country.

I agree, the media just loves to pounce on "honor" killing stories like they're the crime of the century. But that being said...

Islam is a religion like any other, with its liberals, moderates, conservatives, and certifiable nutjobs.

I'd have to disagree. The penalty for renouncing the Islamic faith is death. I know of no other major religion that takes such a hard line towards apostates. I'm sure most Muslims chose not to be that harsh, but that's what's in their "holy" book.

Being the embittered cynic that I am, and drawing on a recent "honor" killing here in Canadaland, smart money says that the rest of the victim's family will rally around the daughter-killing-dad, and blame the dead daughter for being too disobedient. *retches*

[Rapscallion]

I'd have to disagree. The penalty for renouncing the Islamic faith is death. I know of no other major religion that takes such a hard line towards apostates. I'm sure most Muslims chose not to be that harsh, but that's what's in their "holy" book.

Um, you do know that the christian bible has similar things in? Cheek your parents? Die! That sort of thing.

Rapscallion

[Mikkel]

And their holy book say

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.

It is tradition in some places to kill apostates but the Qu'ran says (or can be interpreted that way) to leave the punishment to God.

[Gravekeeper]

Yeah, you don't want to get into a God/Bible vs Allah/Quran comparison in terms of whose more brutal. I've seen a research paper on that before. Nobody wins. >.>

[KitterCat]

I think the major difference between the three Abrahamic religions is how they are being practiced currently. Both Judaism and Christianity have been around for far longer and due to this have been able to go through a growth period. Sort of like a teenager who says you either agree with me or I hate you. They both have rather turbulent past where none believers where killed. Since then they have settled down and are pretty much non-violent.

Not so for Islam. Its still going through its teenage years. While there are many Muslims who are peaceful, it seems as if their ruling eleat are not so open minded. Take a look at the Middle east many of those countries demand that you follow Islamic law. They require that one follows their cultural interpretations of the Qur’an and Hadith. And the interpretations don’t follow the peaceful side of Islam. Its why we keep getting to hear about women being stoned to death Or killed for honor killings. Or blowing things and people up.

Even Egypt, who is suppose to be one of the more Westernized only legally recognized the three Abrahamic religions. Your sort of screwed if you actually want to leave and legally declare your self converted to anything other than Islam in a wonderful battle of red tape.

Personally I think the fathers excuse is laughable. If he really wanted to keep his daughters from becoming westernized he shouldn’t have moved to a country that gave them equal rights. He should have stayed in Iraq where he and the family could stay as in tune with the culture he approves of as he wished.


**while the Quran doesn’t advocate stoning, the Hadith does. Multiple times.
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 413:
The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."

Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah al-Ansari: A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah’s Messenger [Muhammad] and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse; and he bore witness four times against himself. Allah’s Messenger ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person (Bukhari 8:6814; see also 8:6825; 8:6829)