Honor-killing murder trial starting in Arizona

[IDrinkaRum]

Faleh Amaleki on trial for honor-killing his daughter in Arizona

Mr. Amaleki took his family from Iraq to America and settled in Arizona. His daughter, Noor, decided not to go with the arranged marriage her family set up for her and instead moved in with her boyfriend.

Her father, accusing her of being too "Westernized" rammed her (and her boyfriend's mother) with his Jeep in 2009 as they were walking in public (a parking lot).

Prosecutors said that Mr. Amaleki said his daughter had "dishonored" the family by not going with Iraq/Muslim traditions, and had embraced the American/Western way.

[LexiaFira]

First off, you cannot do that here in America. Not that its right that its done back home either. However yeah, you cannot do some of the traditions/customs here without going to jail for them. What the hell did he think would happen if he moved to america, thats the epitome of "westernized"

Makes me think that he just brought more badness to his culture, as if enough people don't think ill of their culture (racism) already...words fail me, i probably sound just as bad. And WORSE he did this in a PUBLIC PARKING lot, yeah witnesses won't say a word, NOT!

[crashhelmet]

Cases like this become a Constitutional clusterphukk. If we are to uphold the Constitution's grant of "Freedom of Religion," then he cannot be charged in her death. They should be able to charge him for the attempt on the BF's mother, but I don't know enough about Islam to say if he had the "right" to attack her as well.

I imagine that in order to side-step the Constitutional protection without too much flack or controversy, they'd have to have evidence she renounced Islam or something. Dunno. I'm not a lawyer.

[Ladeeda]

Cases like this become a Constitutional clusterphukk. If we are to uphold the Constitution's grant of "Freedom of Religion," then he cannot be charged in her death. They should be able to charge him for the attempt on the BF's mother, but I don't know enough about Islam to say if he had the "right" to attack her as well.

Wrong. Freedom of Religion ends where breaking other laws begins.

There are exceptions, like some Native American religions legally being able to use smokeable plants, since that's part of their religion, but in ABSOLUTELY NO WAY can this murder ever fall under a protected right.

And if it is, I'm moving to Canada.

[Hyena Dandy]

The native americans are (often) not on US soil and not US citizens when they do that. Native American nations ahve their own laws.

[Gravekeeper]

Before we rake Islam through the mud, I'd point out that A) This is a cultural issue primarily affecting cultures with obvious gender equality problems which normally heavily control women to begin with. Religion is just an excuse and B) The guy in the article is batshit, as mentioned at the very bottom as a foot note.

The other 95% of Muslims manage to get by just fine without this kind of shit.

[crashhelmet]

The other 95% of Muslims manage to get by just fine without this kind of shit.

Do they, or do we just not hear about it? There are also different sects of Islam, much like the Judeo-Christian faiths. Some believe in upholding Sharia Law and Traditions, others don't.

I'm not saying I agree with what the guy did. I'm just saying that in this age of "The Constitution lets me do _______!!!!" this case treads on volatile ground.

I'm sure there are many loopholes that they can work around, but the fact remains that there are Constitutional Interpretation issues here.

***ETA***

Then again...
This took place in Arizona. The guy is screwed without a doubt.

[BlaqueKatt]

Cases like this become a Constitutional clusterphukk. If we are to uphold the Constitution's grant of "Freedom of Religion," then he cannot be charged in her death.

WRONG-

There is nothing in the Koran, the book of basic Islamic teachings, that permits or sanctions honor killings.

article on honor killings

It's cultural not religious, just like female circumcision, and thus is NOT protected.

and before we get into this debate:
Culture-the total range of activities and ideas of a group of people with shared traditions, which are transmitted and reinforced by members of the group

Religion- belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny.

They are not interchangeable.

[Gravekeeper]

Do they, or do we just not hear about it?

No, they do. =p You have to realise the countries you hear all the crazy shit about as far as Islam is concerned make up a tiny portion of the actual Muslim population in the world.

You need to realize this is not Sharia law, its cultural practice. Sharia law was ironically progressive and awarded women more rights than they had in western law ( Including the right to own property, child support, the right for a woman to divorce, etc. They had all this shit before we did. ) Western law has since eclipsed it obviously. But to begin with Christians were dirt farming barbarians compared to Islam, ironically enough.

But the point is the problem is fundementally culturally. The Quran does not mention honour killing anywhere. It is a cultural phenomena. The Quran ironically actually tells you to listen to your wife and make decisions *with* her. It actually commands you to be nice to her. You're also not permitted to hurt her. And the one verse that some people translate to mean you're allowed to hit her ( which is greatly debated ) and that's only if she's being an evil harpy apparently, even Muslim scholars on the "hit" side of the argument say it doesn't mean beat her, but adominish her with "a hankerchief". But you're not allowed to strike the face under any circumstances ever are in no way allowed use any force that would leave a mark anywhere on her body.

But I'm off topic. Point is honor killings are a big problem in specific cultures. Pakistan for example has problems with it. Indonesia on the other hand, a different culture, not so much. That said, there are only technically two countries in the world where an honour killing is completely legal: Jordan & Syria

For Jordan you can go hog wild. Syria it has to be "in flagrante delicto". Aka you walked in on your wife boinking another man.

Although, in Morrocco both men and women can use the "I caught them boinking" defence as an extaunating circumstance.

Oh, and I should point out that that concept is derived from French civil code.

Sharia Law's biggest problem is the whole stoning/flogging stuff it carried over from the dark ages. But again, not in the Quran. Stoning for example is based only on a few jackasses interpretations of the Hadith. Think of it as the Gospel of Mohamed. But again, many Muslims do not even agree the Hadith should be listened too at all as they think it doesn't actually reflect Mohammed's teachings or anything he said.

So, fundementalist assholes interpreting a debatable source to justify their assholism. Sound familiar? -.-

[crashhelmet]

I stand corrected then. As I said, I don't know a lot about Islam and it looks like I know even less than I thought I did. Maybe I'm confusing it with the verses in Deuteronomy that allow you to stone your kids.

[lordlundar]

As I said, I don't know a lot about Islam and it looks like I know even less than I thought I did.

And it's that situation that is the root of the current cluster fuck that is US foreign policy.

Thank you for understanding that you were mistaken.

[blas87]

I hate when people move to America and commit crimes and use the excuse that it's stanard culture where they are from.

We've had a few problems with Hmong immigrants here from Laos in the past twenty-some years.......from stealing dogs to this one couple who chained up their mentally handicapped son and routinely tortured him in the basement. He got free and ran to a gas station for help, and the couple's defense was that in Laos, that's perfectly fine. You're not in Laos, you fucking idiots.

[crashhelmet]

And it's that situation that is the root of the current cluster fuck that is US foreign policy.

Thank you for understanding that you were mistaken.

I'm never afraid to admit when I'm wrong.

[HYHYBT]

Well, it makes sense: after all, some Americans go to other countries and expect the laws and such to be the same as they are at home

[FArchivist]

If we are to uphold the Constitution's grant of "Freedom of Religion," then he cannot be charged in her death.

Er, no.

First, honor killings are not condoned by any part of Islamic canon law. The honor killings in Middle Eastern nations are actually socio-cultural in nature; they would occur under Islam, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, etc. Wouldn't matter.

Secondly, "freedom of religion" in the USA has long been defined by SCOTUS as NOT including "Oh hey, I'm gonna kill you 'cuz Jesus told me to." There is no Constitutional question here. Look up the stuff on snake handling for interesting cases on the subject.

Do they, or do we just not hear about it? There are also different sects of Islam, much like the Judeo-Christian faiths. Some believe in upholding Sharia Law and Traditions, others don't.

Except that honor killings aren't part of Sharia law. No judgment by a qadi or imam was issued; there was no trial as is required under Sharia law. Honor killings are "I think you dishonored my good name so I'm going to butcher your ass." There's no real religious component. Pro-tip: All those Deep South feud killings where sons/daughters/whatever were slaughtered because they associated with the wrong people? Also "honor killings" by definition.

I'm just saying that in this age of "The Constitution lets me do _______!!!!" this case treads on volatile ground. I'm sure there are many loopholes that they can work around, but the fact remains that there are Constitutional Interpretation issues here.

No, there really aren't. None at all. Zip. Zilch. Period.
If you had any experience or understanding of Constitutional law or cases on freedom of religion you would know this. As it is, I'm feeling a lot of second-hand embarrassment for you. Stop saying things like this; go read up on the subject and get educated.