You are in charge

[Difdi]

How is attacking someone who is armed a good way to get hurt? You simply wait for them to pass and then attack from behind. Being armed is no good in that situation; you're dead, no matter what.

How is it more of a deterrent to an attacker to know that a potential victim is helpless? Most criminals aren't in it to prove their courage, they commit crimes to profit. There's little to no profit in getting hurt or killed in the commission of a crime. A criminal who feels doubt about attacking someone is a criminal who may well pick a different target they are more sure of. There are some towns that have passed laws mandating that all adults be armed; A criminal in one of those towns has no doubt that a potential victim is armed; As a result, violent crime rates are extremely low.

It is not projection of personal motives. I may not think I am a criminal, but I am. We all are. Free of fear of the law, we would all be looting and pillaging without a care in the world - because humanity is by default evil, selfish, and cruel. Oh, we may have personal relationships to others, like our loved ones and families...but that just makes us gangs. Or warlord clans. Altruism is a lie of self-delusion; we are all damned from birth.

You're projecting your personal motives so hard, you can't even see the possibility of your self-delusion. Not everyone is only good while the law is looking. Not everyone is just waiting for the police to be looking the other way to kill and rob. I do what is right because it is right, not because I fear punishment. I do understand, though, that it's not a comforting thought to realize that there are people who are better than you. It's far more comforting to fantasize that they too are corrupt, and only pretending to be good, because they lack honesty. But that's all it is, really. A fantasy.

The only thing that keeps criminals/the populace in check is fear of the law. The fear that something that is higher than us, that operates outside of Rule of Man. Whether it be Fear of the Law of the Autocrat or the Fear of the Law of the Republic, it is fear that keeps the citizens in line.

Granted, there are those criminals who do not fear the law. These are the mental aberrations, the cancers of the human body of society. They must be rooted out, exterminated, cut out on the operating table of the world in accordance with the Law.

Wrong. If a criminal truly feared the law, he/she would not be a criminal. No, what makes a criminal is the belief that they have the right to do whatever they want to anyone they want, coupled to the belief that they can evade discovery by those who would punish them for those acts.

I respect good laws, because they are good, not because they are laws. I don't do so out of fear of punishment. I have absolutely no fear of punishment; I would regard being punished for disobeying an evil law to be an honor. Such punishment means that I stood my ground against evil; Being overcome by superior force is not a dishonor, it's simply a fact of life - nobody is all-powerful.

I don't fear the Law in the slightest. A good law has nothing in it to fear. An evil law, like any evil, great or small, is to be opposed by those who are good. To die fighting against evil is a good death. Though it would be far better to make those perpetrating evil die instead. Were I to find myself in the middle of anarchy, I'd impose justice or die trying. More likely the latter than the former, as people, in general, will fight to the death to preserve their own selfishness.

I disagree with this on two points:

1) The preamble for the Constitution directs the Republic to provide justice and for the common defence. That "common defence", per legal opinion, extends to protecting the citizenry from crime. So if cops are protecting citizens, they are NOT following the law.

Probably corrupt. A few public hangings or beheading will scare the rest into obedience.

I think you may have a typo in there, since as it's written, it doesn't appear to make sense.

2) If it is our duty to protect ourselves, what do we need the police and judicial system for? Protecting ourselves is the Rule of Man, warlordism. It's certainly not Rule of Law.

Law is made by Man. The Man in question may be a priest, may be a ruler, may be a citizen of a republic or a may be despot, but in the end, Law is written by Man. The law is never perfect, but the lack of perfection does not mean that perfection should not be striven for.

It is the duty of every citizen to obey the laws, providing they are just. It is the duty of every citizen to educate himself or herself to be able to make that judgment. The police are nothing more than citizens, called to serve as active militia, and sworn to enforce the law. All citizens are militia; Some serve actively, some are inactive, but all share certain duties to go with their rights.

[Slytovhand]

Hmmm - a couple of interesting points here...

Firstly..Black Iron Crown (Morgoth?? )

...

Free of fear of the law, we would all be looting and pillaging without a care in the world - because humanity is by default evil, selfish, and cruel.

Well... that doesn't explain how people can play a game like NWN or Star Wars:KOTOR etc and be successfully Lawful Good or Light Side (I'm one of those... I have a major problem trying to be Sith... or Chaotic Evil assassins etc....). And for those sort of games, the game makers actually make it quite possible (if not preferable) to play the more evil side to fullest effect and equality. In WoW, there is Horde (perceived as evil-ish) and Alliance (percieved as a bunch of do-gooders) - well, that's how they are presented. Most servers have close to a 50/50 ratio... so I don't think humanity is as bad as you are presenting (not saying we're all glowing rosie... after all, Horde do represent 50%, and people do play Sith... and people do murder and rape and torture...but most of us get horrified when we hear about that guy in Austria...)

And before you say 'but you've all been indoctrinated by society'... just consider all of those tribes that have existed for thousands of years before our current civilisation came along. Most were very egalitarian and peaceful. If things have become so selfish and pillaging, it's through variations in resources... either we've had too many and lust after more, or we haven't had enough and want things to be easier. When we live in a place of equality and freedom from worrying about resources - then things turn nice and peachy

The only thing that keeps criminals/the populace in check is fear of the law

I presume you meant punishment? The law is nothing without a form of punishment...


Difdi...

I don't fear the Law in the slightest. A good law has nothing in it to fear. An evil law, like any evil, great or small, is to be opposed by those who are good. To die fighting against evil is a good death.

Ah... but what or who decides what is evil and what is not? I could quite easily say that not having a free public health system is 'evil'... what then? Go assassinate any politician who votes against it? (don't worry - I actually agree with your sentiment ) Education has shown that what is good for some will be evil for others...

What may be good for me may be very bad for others, and what's bad for me may be very good for the rest of the population... that's pretty much what the gun control thread is about... the perceptions we have.

The law is never perfect, but the lack of perfection does not mean that perfection should not be striven for.

ok... time to go home now...

Slyt

[Difdi]

Ah... but what or who decides what is evil and what is not? I could quite easily say that not having a free public health system is 'evil'... what then? Go assassinate any politician who votes against it? (don't worry - I actually agree with your sentiment ) Education has shown that what is good for some will be evil for others...

What may be good for me may be very bad for others, and what's bad for me may be very good for the rest of the population... that's pretty much what the gun control thread is about... the perceptions we have.

Most people aren't actively good or actively evil. Either one requires a fair amount of work and effort. Only an insane person wakes up and decides "Today I will be an evil bastard." No, instead, the work and effort needed to be evil lies in self-delusion. Sacrifices must be made. Someone has to make the hard decisions. The ends justify the means. These are all means of deluding oneself that one is actually a good person in an imperfect world. The problem is, that you make the world good by being good -- If you decide that because the world isn't perfect you shouldn't be either, you're giving up.

On the other hand, being good takes work too. Anyone can parrot the morality of an established religion or philosophy. But actually being a good person takes honesty, self-sacrifice, and putting effort into defining, objectively, what goodness actually is. Subjectively, one group might consider slavery a good thing. Subjectively, another group may consider genocide to be perfectly ok. But only subjectively; The slaves and victims of genocide have their own subjective views, and they disagree strenuously.

So, objectively, what is good? To the best of my ability, it seems to be very similar to the wiccan creed of "an it harm none, do as ye will." The thorny issue then becomes, defining harm. Loss of free will can also be objectively defined as harm. The best definition I can come up with for harm is "doing things to others without their consent."

So, I don't object in the least to someone who chooses to smoke; But I object very strongly to second-hand smoke (there is enough nicotine alone, to say nothing of other toxins, in one cigarette to kill a smoker instantly, were it to be all ingested; Most of it is exhaled. A single drop of 5% nicotine solution on the back of the hand is fatal to the average adult in minutes).

I don't object in the least to people poisoning themselves with their drug of choice -- But I do object to asking anyone else to pay for the medical treatments resulting from the consequences of that choice. And if that person causes harm to another while under the influence, they are wholly responsible for the damages (this is the one instance where I would consider indentured labor to be a good thing -- Accidents happen, of course...but impairing oneself before an accident is not ok).

By my standards, the average prohibitionist is more evil than the average drug dealer, taking their stance on prohibited substances as a stand-alone issue.

[MystyGlyttyr]

Heh. All I have to say is that you guys wouldn't want me in charge of anything. I'll just say there'd be a hell of a lot more radioactive smoking craters in the world and a lot more well-muscled men in camo pants and leave it at that. There's a reason my two favorite things are wrestling and the Scorched Earth video game.

Hence why I avoid any possible position involving abuse-able power. Except for being a secretary. That I freely abuse.

The rest of the debates here, though, I'm rather enjoying.

[Boozy]

Heh. All I have to say is that you guys wouldn't want me in charge of anything. I'll just say there'd be a hell of a lot more radioactive smoking craters in the world and a lot more well-muscled men in camo pants and leave it at that.

I'm trying to work out whether or not this would be an improvement over the current state of affairs.

Could be, really.

[rahmota]

Somethign I noticed I forgot under finances:
1: Make it illegal for a company to run a credit check when considering a person for hiring. Having bad credit does not automatically make that person a bad choice for a job. Especially in the crappy economy america is struggling with right now. Recession my big toe this is a depression.

BIC: Let me tell you somethign about criminals. I've been in jail with some and around others. I have walked on the dark side of the street. Most criminals will not bother someone who is armed and will go out looking for easier prey. If they think you are weak, or unarmed or incapable of defending yourself they will come after you. One reason I have made sure people understand I am armed and willing to kill to defend my home and my family as well as myself. A good deterrent is the weapon you only have to fire once.