Vegetarians, vegans, and minorities

[Rapscallion]

Bit of an interesting conundrum I faced the other day in the information department. A member of a vegan organisation copied in my place and two others as major wholesalers in the UK and was raging against someone I don't know on the grounds that there were milk products in their chocolate and carob coated raisins and peanuts.

Actually, it was a fairly coherent argument, that the companies involved were excluding a fairly significant section of the market from their goods. From my understanding, vegetarianism in the UK was about the 8-10% of the population area, and veganism was around the 0.25-0.5% area. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism#Demographics).

This in mind, my initial thoughts were that the market wasn't denying the vegans, but the vegans were denying themselves the goods in question. When the figure of vegans in the UK was quoted by said correspondant as 6%, I was surprised. Not only did this fly in the face of all the evidence I could find (http://www.food.gov.uk/science/dieta.../ndns0809year1 for example - the 7MB document and check for the term 'vegan' in the pdf - it's negligible in percentage terms), but I also found an initial shift in my initial assumptions. With a far larger number of people involved as a percentage of the population, or was so claimed, my perceptions seemed to shift more towards favouring their viewpoints.

So, should I temporarily (until I checked the facts) have felt differently when a larger figure was apparently involved? What sort of level should that have occurred?

Was it unreasonable of the correspondant to expect that companies would change their working practices to make them more inclusive of those who are willing to deny themselves certain of the ingredients?

What I explained in reply was pretty much that as a wholesaler, we were restricted to what was on offer from the producers and that the fact we're in an economic world made all the difference. She was advocating a new dairy free version of chocolate (most such versions up until now have been more like penance than pleasure) that won't have even registered on the scopes of the manufacturers of the products in question.

I don't really want to get bogged down in the old vegetarianism versus omnivorism argument we've had before. I'm more interested in the acceptability of the demands of minorities at what level.

Thoughts?

Rapscallion

[HYHYBT]

I think the key is exactly in phrasing it as a demand. There's nothing wrong with saying "hey, you know, if you'd make this change to your product, then we'd buy it," and if the change is something that others wouldn't notice or can readily be done as a new product, they might well even do it.

And it's fair to consider the numbers. Half a percent is very different than 6%, which is different again than, say, 25. If a quarter of the country were vegan, it would be foolish not at least to offer a vegan-friendly version, and if the two are close enough in taste and price that people wouldn't notice the difference, even to make that the only kind. If their number of 6% is right, that's at least enough to consider, especially if nobody else is offering the same thing for that market. But a separate line for half a percent almost surely wouldn't be worthwhile, and in this case, changing the regular product rather than making it separate would only drive away the other 99.5%. Surely a losing proposition

[crashhelmet]

Is this a case of a vocal minority demanding more to fit their needs, rather than accepting what the business offers?

In other words, would this be like me as a Catholic going into a fast food restaurant on a Friday during Lent and demanding that they offer more than just the one single fish sandwich or whatever their limited vegetarian menu offers?

If that's the case, I could understand them making calm, respectful, and professional requests, but not make a stink over it. To me, it's a typical SC move of "My wants are more important than any of your other customers."

[Ginger Tea]

We occasionally have a call for Halal, Kosher, Vegan and Gluten free meals for our customers as well as soya milk and yoghurts, most times there is a vegan or GF option already, if not we have frozen stock to choose from for vegan and I can always ask someone what is available GF wise.
Kosher and Halal we buy in ready made and one of the morning drops asks for "Halal meal no pig meat" isn't that one of the key parts to halal? that and a prayer and different slaughter methods to normal methods.
Although when I first started working there, someone had entered a cheese topped meal as a vegan choice in the system, I had to explain the difference to the office.

[Sage Blackthorn]

When I was growing up, I heard the phrase "The Squeaky Wheel Gets The Grease" a lot and it always annoyed me that the people who whined and complained the most got special treatment just to shut them up. Placating special interest groups just to shut them up is a bad habit to get into. No one is preventing companies from making dairy/lactose free chocolate and carob covered raisens and peanuts. This isn't a case of unfair treatment. It's simply a case of what's profitable for the producer vs. what's not. 8-10% and 0.25-.50% of the population is an extremely small market share and not making a product for such a small group isn't likely to hurt the manufacturers profit margin at all.

Now if NO ONE is making a product that group wants, then they have an opportunity to fullfill a niche market within their community by creating and marketing a product they want.

In either case, I would find myself either tuning out and ignoring or getting highly annoyed at someone "raging" about how the product isn't made how THEY like it.

[Rapscallion]

I misread some of it - the numbers quoted were about the million mark claimed for vegans, but the figures from surveys I've seen are about a tenth of that.

In general, it was fairly polite, so I have no real objection, but I suppose what really made me wonder is when a self-declared minority should have the expectations to get 'special' (depending on your definition of special) treatment. What sort of percentage should that be?

Rapscallion

[guywithashovel]

There's nothing wrong with someone making a polite request. After all, that can be a good way for an organization to find out how to better serve the population and possibly increase profits.

Now, there is one thing I've heard of vegetarians and vegans doing that I find a little obnoxious. Some of them like to go to restaurants and order a hamburger without the hamburger patty or something else like that. As if that weren't enough, they show a snide amusement when the employees look at them funny.

When I was still in grad school, I got to class early one day. It was an evening class, so several of the students had brought take-out dinners in with them. A few of the students who either were vegetarians or had previously been vegetarians got to talking about this.

A few of them said, "I have the hardest time explaining to the people at McDonald's that I want a hamburger without the hamburger patty. I get the strangest looks whenever I do that!" Several others agreed.

Well, yeah, that's because a hamburger patty is pretty much what makes a hamburger a hamburger. Without the hamburger patty, it's pretty much just a bun with some toppings in the middle. It's no wonder the staff give them strange looks for it.

[Ginger Tea]

McDonalds and Burger King arn't renouned for their vegetarian choices, so those that do order a burger sans burger do look like prank orderers and it would not surprise me if the burger cost the same regardless of meat content just to hammer the message home that they are a dead cow establishment first and foremost (and I wouldn't have them any other way)

Wouldn't they be better off going to Subway or another sandwich shop if thats what they are after?

[Andara Bledin]

I had a friend that would order her burgers with the patty on the side. She ate meat, but she didn't like the meat McDonald's uses. So she'd get a burger, toss the patty to her dog, and fill the bun with her fries and some tartar sauce to go with the special sauce already on it.

I'm of the opinion that any special order that isn't obviously a prank should be treated like any other special order. No meat? No different than asking for no ketchup or no tomato. Plus, there aren't fries to be had as part of a combo at any Subway I've ever encountered or heard about.

However, when it comes to what product a company carries or manufactures, that's up to the company to decide. You can make requests of them, but if you want to make demands, then start your own company and make it yourself.

^-.-^

[guywithashovel]

I didn't mean to say that they should refuse a person ordering a sandwich without the patty or be rude to them. However, I don't think it should be a shock if someone raises an eyebrow over a customer ordering a hamburger without a patty, since without that, it really isn't a hamburger.

[crashhelmet]

I don't know about McDonald's, but Burger King has a register key for "Veggie Whopper" and "Veggie Whopper Jr." If you order one of them, you'll get everything they come with, just without the meat. Or at least, that's how it used to be. I don't know if they're carrying garden burgers or not yet. I haven't really paid attention.

[Ginger Tea]

I can understand making vegetarian burger and hotdog substitutes to go with the bun's, but I swear, once in Tesco's or Sainsbury's I saw vegetarian bacon, I shit you not, bacon shaped vegetarian 'something'.
Who the hell thought that one up?

[Rapscallion]

I used to wonder about that, especially as we sell some of that gear. It even has a part of it dyed white to make it look like fat. However, after a bit I realised that people gave us money for it and I gave up wondering.

Rapscallion

[HYHYBT]

...it would not surprise me if the burger cost the same regardless of meat content just to hammer the message home that they are a dead cow establishment first and foremost...

Not for that reason, no. It's simply that you cannot ring up products that do not exist. And ringing up products that *do* exist means charging what they cost. It's closely related to having to have a SKU to ring up an item in the store, no matter how much the customer says "I told you, it's $13.99"

And there's no sandwich cheaper than a hamburger. I think the only *food* cheaper is as single cookie, and they're a relatively new and easily forgotten addition.

Now, if you wanted, say, a Quarter Pounder bun (bigger and with seeds on it), the better onions, and maybe lettuce and tomato added, if I was there I'd still charge it as a regular hamburger What surprised me was that a couple people ordered things like the Double Quarter Pounder without meat; why, why, why?

[Victoria J]

I think it's only reasonable to see a "right" to special dietary requirements where you don't have a choice of a provider. If dietary restrictions reduce available food hugely people may have less variety but there should be some options - and I'd think that vegetarian, vegan, halal, kosher, and the more common food allergies (gluten, nuts, etc.) should be considered when planning meal options. I'd think that would apply for example at schools, hospitals*, prisons, and places like college and large workplace cafeterias.

In terms of private companies providing food - they don't need to provide a full choice. The choice is available when you choose the shop, restaurant, company, etc.

However when you see companies ignoring large markets you do question why they don't make things available. The numbers definitely count. Just as an example - MacDonalds for years having no vegetarian options looked fairly contemptuous given the number of vegetarians, the ease of having an option and that while they were never going to be the target market they would be likely to visit with others (particularly considering the large teenage cross over of vegetarians and MacDonalds patrons).

There are a very large number of vegetarians in the UK (compared to pretty much anywhere that started off as meat eating and not historically largely vegetarian). And a further change for many people of eating meat more rarely. I was raised vegetarian, my mother has been vegetarian for 40+ years. The change has been huge, and it now really isn't difficult to find food.

Your correspondent is hugely off on vegan numbers - but it's worth considering whether the percentage of vegan customers is much higher for certain whole foods. Plus any market for those who are lactose intolerant or skip some dairy product for other reasons (one of my colleagues keeps talking about egg free cake, and apparently doesn't eat eggs at all. Something to do with her branch of Hinduism. She has other dairy products).

*I think I posted on Customers Suck about the problems my mother had with hospital food - where for a whole week the vegetarian option was a cheese pizza swimming in grease. Healthy ! The cook actually came up and apologised at one point.

I don't know about McDonald's, but Burger King has a register key for "Veggie Whopper" and "Veggie Whopper Jr." If you order one of them, you'll get everything they come with, just without the meat. Or at least, that's how it used to be. I don't know if they're carrying garden burgers or not yet. I haven't really paid attention.

Burger King here has had vegetarian options for ages. They used to do Beanburgers, but some places couldn't cook them temperately so they did those and guaranteed vegetarian burgers. They've stopped the bean burgers now. The remaining things are limp and have a hideous processed texture. The bean burgers were actually nice.

Victoria J