They don't hate you...

[Mr. Anubite]

Hyena Dandy brought up a point in the thread on JW missionaries, but I didn't want to threadjack, so I thought I should bring up this idea here.

If someone hates or strongly dislikes a religion or sexuality, why doesn't that mean they hate the individual who practices those things? For example, I'm Jewish. I'm also Gay. If someone hates Homosexuality or Judaism, I feel that the person in question would hate me as a person.

This is a common argument in defense of "traditional" marriage. Proponents claim that they don't hate Gay people. However, they don't want them to have the same rights they do. Isn't that the same thing? I think so.

I really had no idea where I was going with this, but I'd like to know if anyone else feels similarly.

[Greenday]

If someone hates homosexuality and Judiasm, and you are both, then yes, they hate you. They hate what you are. They don't have to hate you for any specific reasons for stuff that you do or say, just the fact that you are members of those groups makes them hate you.

The whole "I don't believe these people should have the same rights because of being gay" thing is absurd. It's no different than saying black people shouldn't be able to vote or own land.

[HYHYBT]

Hmmm.... well, for the general question of "can you hate a group without hating all its members..." it can depend on what it is about the group you hate. For instance, I've known people who hated Catholics, but I've also known people who hated *Catholicism* (because of the crusades, or because they believe it to be the "whore of Babylon" and it will trick its followers into damnation, or whatever) but aside from differing beliefs think nothing but the best of the few actual Catholic people they know.

(Sorry; had to switch examples, because I don't know of any anti-Semites who don't hate individual Jews.)

As for homosexuality... this seems awfully familiar ground, and I know that the practical *effect* is very much like hatred... But it is certainly possible to believe someone to be *wrong* without hating them. And if you believe that what they're wrong about is dangerous, physically and spiritually, it makes sense to tell them so, and to discourage others from going the same direction. The problem, at least in the better cases, is that they're so horribly mistaken about what homosexuality even IS that all they can do is harm.

Take one of the more extreme examples: the (admittedly off in the head) people who believe that being gay is caused by demonic possession and that it propagates by sex. The old vampire theory, where we go around molesting children or teenagers, thereby turning them gay. Yes, it's complete nonsense, and easily proven so by the sheer numbers of gay people who were never molested and those of straight people who were. But suppose for a moment that you really believed that, as firmly as you believe water to be wet. What follows? Well, you're probably going to hate homosexuality. You're probably going to want to protect the children (sorry, just typing this makes me shudder), perhaps by locking up the gay people where they can't get at them, but at *least* by opposing any attempt to treat homosexuality as anything remotely normal or acceptable. And if you have any love for the gays themselves, you'll want them exorcised. But because the premise is wrong, the conclusions are as well, and therefore well-meaning actions based on them will do harm rather than good.

[Mr. Anubite]

Interesting points, both of you. HYHYBT, the specific examples aren't important. Your comments on the anti-Catholics applies here, too. I guess I never thought of the difference of hating a group versus hating an individual. I'm just not sure that the two are always separate.

[Hyena Dandy]

I believe that they do not hate you, they hate the IDEA of you. If they are confronted with the REALITY of you, they will not hate you.

I have friends who hate Catholics, and repeatedly said they would never be friends with a Catholic. Once they found out I was, in fact, Catholic, we remained friends, even though they still say they hate Catholics.

[Greenday]

I believe that they do not hate you, they hate the IDEA of you.

What's the difference? You are that idea.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

What's the difference? You are that idea.

I think a more accurate version of that thought would be: they don't hate you, they hate what you represent.

[FArchivist]

I really had no idea where I was going with this, but I'd like to know if anyone else feels similarly.

The answer is that people often hate an abstract, but are unable to transfer that hate objectively and concretely to people they actually know. This is because of emotional distance; it takes much less to hate an abstract than to hate an actual in-your-face representation.

[FArchivist]

I have friends who hate Catholics, and repeatedly said they would never be friends with a Catholic. Once they found out I was, in fact, Catholic, we remained friends, even though they still say they hate Catholics.

Do you ever force them to recognize the dichotomy of the situation? I have; I can't stand that wimpy-ass "Well, you're different." when you point out that, hey, you hate Catholics, I'm a Catholic, so by logical default, you should hate me. Defensiveness ensues because they don't want to explain WHY that's different. And it's mainly because they don't want to admit they're wrong.

Then they bitch that it isn't fair when I cut them off socially, defriend them, etc, because I have no interest in being friends with a person who a) is supposed to hate me or b) is a hypocrite. For fuck's sake, at least a Neo-Nazi isn't a hypocrite.

[Hyena Dandy]

What's the difference? You are that idea.

I am not the idea of me, I am me. Unlike an idea, I am concrete. I can be touched, and spoken to. I can be seen to be a reasonable person.

The idea of me is just a description of me.

Any hate for all members of X group is hatred in the abstract, rather than the concrete. If someone hates all gay people, they abstractly hate. They do not specifically hate all gay people, because they have not met all gay people.

And hopefully, by living exemplary lives despite being whatevers, then we can work to open the minds of anti-whatevers, who claim to hate all whatevers.

You probably won't convince someone to change their mind by arguing. Things like that will take time. But by living right, you can change some, eventually.

[Greenday]

I don't mean literally you are an idea a.k.a. non-physical and abstract. I mean you are the physical form of your idea. The physical product of it.

[smileyeagle1021]

Hmmm.... well, for the general question of "can you hate a group without hating all its members..." it can depend on what it is about the group you hate. For instance, I've known people who hated Catholics, but I've also known people who hated *Catholicism* (because of the crusades, or because they believe it to be the "whore of Babylon" and it will trick its followers into damnation, or whatever) but aside from differing beliefs think nothing but the best of the few actual Catholic people they know.

A lot of this is who broad is the characteristic that you hate and how narrow of a reason do you hate it.
The religion example is one that is very easy to see someone hating the religion but not hating the individuals. Especially if the reason you hate it is one or two specific beliefs, that members of that group may not share universally.
As an example, I despise the teachings of the LDS church, I find their teachings on homosexuality and the role of women to be reprehensible. I find their implied teachings that one can not be saved unless they are married and have children to be cruel and heartless (so if you die young before you meet someone to marry, you're fucked, if your infertile, you're fucked). Now if I were to meet Mormons who don't agree with those specific doctrines or implied teaching then there is no reason to dislike them for their religion as they don't hold the views I disagree with.

Now, with the specific example of homosexuality, that is a vary narrow trait... there really is only one characteristic of homosexuality, you are attracted to your own sex rather than the opposite sex. If someone doesn't like that because sleeping with someone of the same sex is evil, or icky, or sinful, or whatever, it is very unlikely that they won't find something that they disagree with.

[Ginger Tea]

Hating the religion I do understand.

I find it hard to think that people hate other people due to their religious beliefs, unless of course that belief means they go around being a gay hating antisemite with the charisma of a dead sea slug (and that's insulting to sea slugs). Now these people might be gay hating anti semites and agnostic or a totally different religion that is tollerant of something they themselves are intollerant to.

I afair, have never been in a situation where someone has said "but you like me and I'm a blank" to which someone would reply "Oh but your one of the good blanks.", yet I have heard or read these lines elsewhere, its the back peddling of a stance as you know this one person vs the great brush you paint everyone else with.

"Carl can't be gay he hasn't tried fucking me in all the years I've known him, not even in the showers at the gym and I dropped the soap a few times too. He must say he is to get with the chicks as chicks dig gay guys." translation, Carl doesn't fancy you or if he does you are in the friend zone.

[HYHYBT]

I guess I never thought of the difference of hating a group versus hating an individual. I'm just not sure that the two are always separate.

They're NOT always separate... but they *can* be.

Now if I were to meet Mormons who don't agree with those specific doctrines or implied teaching then there is no reason to dislike them for their religion as they don't hold the views I disagree with.

Now, with the specific example of homosexuality, that is a vary narrow trait... there really is only one characteristic of homosexuality, you are attracted to your own sex rather than the opposite sex. If someone doesn't like that because sleeping with someone of the same sex is evil, or icky, or sinful, or whatever, it is very unlikely that they won't find something that they disagree with.

It's quite possible to disagree with someone *without* hating, or even disliking, them.

"Carl can't be gay he hasn't tried fucking me in all the years I've known him, not even in the showers at the gym and I dropped the soap a few times too. He must say he is to get with the chicks as chicks dig gay guys." translation, Carl doesn't fancy you or if he does you are in the friend zone.

Some people just can't fathom not being found attractive The same guy probably thinks all the girls who turn him down are lesbians.

[Andara Bledin]

I don't mean literally you are an idea a.k.a. non-physical and abstract. I mean you are the physical form of your idea. The physical product of it.

Yes and no.

You are the physical embodiment of your own personal idea to the best of your ability. Your idea of you, and your actualization of you are not quite the same thing, otherwise nobody would ever change.

Other people's ideas of you are imperfect at best and can be as bad as to be barely recognizable. Most are only partially formed from fragments of interaction and basic assumptions, with personal stereotypes filling in the blanks until they get to know you more fully.

They're NOT always separate... but they *can* be.It's quite possible to disagree with someone *without* hating, or even disliking, them.

Quite so.

Take politics, for another example. I have quite a few friends who hold differing viewpoints that I don't agree with at all, but as they hold those viewpoints for reasons that are valid to them, I can respect that, and we remain friends.

^-.-^