The Great Porn Debate

[DesignFox]

Botox paralyzes your face...um...yick...

Oh and isn't it something that can kill you? I mean, obviously not if it's injected into your face...but isn't it a toxin?

Oh right...the topic...

I say, if you like porn. Go for it. To each their own.

Someone was talking about Hentai...I watched some out of curiosity with a group of people at college. I hope I'm not insulting anyone by saying that that shit is fucked up and I don't know who in their right mind is turned on by it cause it's that weird...

And yea, a lot of the characters look remarkably young... and some of them are portrayed as being in school... It's pretty questionable.

I say as long as no one is being harmed and there is no non-consent going on...well... whatever.

[Sylvia727]

Otherkinks including animals welllll what you do in you home is your business.

I don't condone animal abuse or cruelty in any form. This site has some information on beastiality and animal abusers; the most shocking to me was the fact that some species of animals are killed by the act itself, while most species have a high risk of injuries stemming from beastiality. And that's just physical symptoms. No animal can give informed consent. I can't see anyway that beastiality would not be animal abuse. The above site also links beastiality to violence and abuse of humans.

Drawn or CGI beastiality I don't have a problem with, especially as it overlaps with the furry fandom. But just as violent porn can trigger an unstable mind, so could beastiality porn trigger an unstable mind. There's no one all-encompassing way for society to keep triggers away from the unstable. Aside from porn distributers being discreet about their sales, to keep it away from children, I don't see them having much recourse or even obligation. It comes down to our legal system to punish offenders after the fact.

[rahmota]

Botox is a poison. Its also called botulisim or food poisoning...So uh yeah not exactly somethign I'd want to be sticking in my body. Also the way it works is it freezes the muscles of the face in a paralytic siezure basically (greenday can probably tell you a lot more details about it) or somethign like that. Not good as I think It looks sick. Sort of the leona helmsly g force face effect for those that overdo it.....

Anyhow back to speakign of porn (though a picture of a botox junkie on the cover of a porn might be enough to spoil the mood....)

Sylvia727:All I can say to you is *shrug* For some of the stuff its only animals and so what is all I can? A lady shoves a gerbil up her joybox okay. Thats a bit beyond kinnky in my book but if shes an adult and someone is stupid enough to pay 20 bucks or whatever the video cost to see ehr do it and they do it in private and dont do anything else stupid or bad against the law then so what. Aint my problem. And if the gerbil buys it oh well one less gerbil. Its not like they're on the endangered species list or anything.

And no an animal cant give consent its an animal. Its hardwired to respond a certain way and only a certain way. How do you think people get the semen for artificial insemination? I've helped work a neighbors cattle farm during implantation time. Trust me you do that the last thing on your mind is kinky fun. One of my friends had his shoulder dislocated during collection. And thats while using all kinds of safety equipment. Bestiality involving some animals may wind up with the person injured and the animal very confused but not much else.
And if the lady doing it was an adult and sober and decided to dance with a bull and she gets hurt then oh damn too bad joe thats her problem. If she lives she might decide to change kinks.

There's no one all-encompassing way for society to keep triggers away from the unstable.

No there isnt. And society shouldnt bother trying to police the thoughts and actions of individuals to that degree anyhow. Heck goign into borders for those who are truely messed up could find somethign to trigger them. It all depends on the individuals and if there is laws against criminal behaviors such as rape and child molestation then good clean porn dont need to be hidden away.

[Sylvia727]

Sylvia727:All I can say to you is *shrug* For some of the stuff its only animals and so what is all I can? A lady shoves a gerbil up her joybox okay. Thats a bit beyond kinnky in my book but if shes an adult and someone is stupid enough to pay 20 bucks or whatever the video cost to see ehr do it and they do it in private and dont do anything else stupid or bad against the law then so what. Aint my problem. And if the gerbil buys it oh well one less gerbil. Its not like they're on the endangered species list or anything.

Could you please explain to me where precisely on the body the "joybox" is located?

It's not okay to kill helpless animals. It's not okay to hurt helpless animals. It is your problem, because it's your society's problem. Read up on the problems associated with beastiality. The site I linked to earlier is a good start. To list just a few dangers of sex with animals; it hurts or kills the animals involved (which is illegal and immoral), it's linked with sadism, it's used to abuse the humans involved, and it's used to perpetuate harmful sexual stereotypes, including sexism and racism.

Coming back to the moral issue of beastiality, it's not acceptable to hurt animals. You may think "it's just one dead gerbil", but that animal did not have to die. Animals feel pain, and as moral beings it is our responsibility not to spread pain.

How do you think people get the semen for artificial insemination? I've helped work a neighbors cattle farm during implantation time. Trust me you do that the last thing on your mind is kinky fun.

That's hardly the same thing. Firstly, as you yourself said, it's not "kinky fun". Secondly, you're doing this to help the animal or its species. Thirdly, you're taking reasonable precautions to help the animal. In fact, it sounds like you need great precautions to protect yourself. You can't compare masturbating a bull for artificial insemination to masturbating a bull for selfish pleasure.

Bestiality involving some animals may wind up with the person injured and the animal very confused but not much else.

Maybe. Maybe not. Without knowing the animal's state of mind, how can you know? That's like arguing that a man can't have been raped because he was erect or he orgasmed. The body's responses have little or nothing to do with the fact of rape, or cruelty.

And if the lady doing it was an adult and sober and decided to dance with a bull and she gets hurt then oh damn too bad joe thats her problem. If she lives she might decide to change kinks.

I'm really not worried about people who get hurt while hurting other people or things. Call me callous, I just can't work up the energy.

No there isnt. And society shouldnt bother trying to police the thoughts and actions of individuals to that degree anyhow. Heck goign into borders for those who are truely messed up could find somethign to trigger them. It all depends on the individuals and if there is laws against criminal behaviors such as rape and child molestation then good clean porn dont need to be hidden away.

Agreed, with reservations. I don't like the thought of a police state or a nanny state, but for those who are truly in need of psychiatric help, there must be a way to keep most triggers away from them. Right now that responsibility is on the individual. In the future, we may come up with a way to protect the general population from privacy invasions and at the same time protect disturbed individuals from their triggers.

[rahmota]

Could you please explain to me where precisely on the body the "joybox" is located?

Yes I can. Its the vagina you know.

It's not okay to kill helpless animals. It's not okay to hurt helpless animals. It is your problem, because it's your society's problem.

Society has a lot bigger problems than the warm fuzzy brigade wanting to end "animal cruelty". Yes I agree that anythign that hurts or interferes with the productivity or usefulness of an animal is a bad thing. But thats it.

Coming back to the moral issue of beastiality, it's not acceptable to hurt animals.

Not for just the fun of it on the surface no I guess. Making an animal so it cannot work or cannot be used or useful after its death is morally wrong. Getting jiggy with it while sick and disgusting is a gray area I dont particularly care about as I dont see it as my personal problem. And as for my societies problems my society can go take a flying frak on this problem as there are many other more important thigns to be resolved first like making sure everyhuman is not mistreated or abused first.
I dunno if a person getting jiggy with an animal hurts the animal more than the human gets hurt or not. Animals are hardwired to respond a certain way to certain things. They dont feel the way humans do. They dont think the way humans do. Thats what makes them animals and us humans. We are above them in the sentience scale for a reason you know and it aint just opposable thumbs.

You can't compare masturbating a bull for artificial insemination to masturbating a bull for selfish pleasure.

*shrug* I guess. From the bulls perspective its no different. The only difference is the human factor.

Without knowing the animal's state of mind, how can you know?

They are an animal how much of a state of mind can they have? I've grown up on a farm with cattle and chickens and pigs and goats and believe me, I wonder if someof these creatures even have a mind sometimes. Horses I believe do possess a crude degree of mental ability but still not even close to a normal human level.

I'm really not worried about people who get hurt while hurting other people or things. Call me callous, I just can't work up the energy.

No I'll agree with you on this one. Someone hurts themselves by being a moron or a bully or doing harmful thigns to another I'm gonna be like nelson on simpsons and walk away. So if you're callous I'm in that boat too.

but for those who are truly in need of psychiatric help, there must be a way to keep most triggers away from them.

Sad to say but the day we as a country can do that and respect the rights and freedoms of people is the day i tap dance to the moon.

[AFPheonix]

Think of it this way. People who treat animals in sadistic ways tend to go on and treat other people in sadistic ways. So human welfare and animal welfare are not really 2 separate ideals. Cracking down on beastiality is not the same as being a crazy PETA person who throws paint on someone wearing a fur coat.

[Dreamstalker]

Someone was talking about Hentai...I watched some out of curiosity with a group of people at college. I hope I'm not insulting anyone by saying that that shit is fucked up and I don't know who in their right mind is turned on by it cause it's that weird...

I would tend to agree. The ex once said "But you like japanese stuff, this is japanese, so you should like it"...um, no. Obviously-contrived tentacle porn? No thanks. Now there is some mild hentai I actually like, but the fetish-y stuff is just...ew.

Animals are hardwired to respond a certain way to certain things.

So are humans.

They dont feel the way humans do. They dont think the way humans do. Thats what makes them animals and us humans. We are above them in the sentience scale for a reason you know and it aint just opposable thumbs.

What defines sentience exactly? The human standard of intelligence isn't the only thing out there.

[Sylvia727]

Yes I can. Its the vagina you know.

Then why didn't you say vagina? I have difficulty taking an argument with immature and juvenile synonyms seriously.

Society has a lot bigger problems than the warm fuzzy brigade wanting to end "animal cruelty".

Sure. But that doesn't diminish the severity of the problem, nor does it make animal cruelty justifiable. There's no reason different members of society can't tackle different problems, and no member of society should be allowed to perpetuate a problem just because it's minor.

Making an animal so it cannot work or cannot be used or useful after its death is morally wrong. Getting jiggy with it while sick and disgusting is a gray area I dont particularly care about as I dont see it as my personal problem.

I think these two examples are for different reasons, or rather that the first example is wrong for two reasons and the second is wrong for one. Hurting an animal is wrong, whether the injury comes from sexual abuse or by purely physical abuse. Rendering an animal useless is merely wasteful.

And as for my societies problems my society can go take a flying frak on this problem as there are many other more important thigns to be resolved first like making sure everyhuman is not mistreated or abused first.

Yes, there are things that should have a higher priority. But there's no reason different people can't address different priorities. Even if animal cruelty was given a one percent priority, there'd be 3 million people in the united states alone who could be helping. Just because it's not the most important doesn't mean it's not important.

I dunno if a person getting jiggy with an animal hurts the animal more than the human gets hurt or not. <snip> We are above them in the sentience scale for a reason you know and it aint just opposable thumbs.

They can feel pain. That is a fact. Many forms of beastiality cause physical pain or even death to the animal. That is also a fact. This is an opinion: as humans are moral beings, as we are at the top of sentience scale, and as we are the stewards of the earth, we have a moral obligation to avoid causing pain wherever possible.

*shrug* I guess. From the bulls perspective its no different. The only difference is the human factor.

A significance difference is the human factor. This would fall under 'needlessly' causing pain, as there is a need for artifical insemination. I don't know enough about bulls and other large mammals to know whether mounting a human would cause the animal pain, either physically or psychologically. But I do know, from my research, that a human mounting a farmyard animal can cause internal injuries and the act itself can be painful to the animal. Beastiality with smaller animals will almost certainly cause pain, injury, and death.

They are an animal how much of a state of mind can they have?

More and more research is being done on this question. I know they have enough mind to feel pain. Cats and dogs have enough intelligence to learn commands and overcome obstacles. My cousin has a helping hand dog, and she (the dog) knows over 50 commands, including "bring me object", "help me walk", and "get Mommy", along with conditional learning like when to cross traffic at a crosswalk, and the difference between a seizure and four-year-old-with-disabilities rough loving. That dog is smarter than some people I know; why is it okay to hurt her?

Sad to say but the day we as a country can do that and respect the rights and freedoms of people is the day i tap dance to the moon.

Maybe, yes. I think there's got to be a way to do this; whether we can find it, implement it, and protect it from corruption in the near future is hard to say. I think we will find it eventually.

[rahmota]

Think of it this way. People who treat animals in sadistic ways tend to go on and treat other people in sadistic ways. So human welfare and animal welfare are not really 2 separate ideals. Cracking down on beastiality is not the same as being a crazy PETA person who throws paint on someone wearing a fur coat.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I've seen people that would kick a dog for wagging its tail too loud and be the kindest thing to kids and vice versa. there isnt always a correlation between the two. At least enough that I've seen.

So are humans.What defines sentience exactly? The human standard of intelligence isn't the only thing out there.

Humans are hardwired in some regards but we also have the capacity to rise above that programming and choose our own paths. Animals do not. It is the capacity to reason and choose a behavior that seperates us humans from the lower animals. Not tools, not language (althouhg there is a difference between the works of william shaekespeare and the grunts and clicks of even a dolphin or whale) not even the opposable thumb. It is our minds and our thinking capacity and capability to rise to the challenges and adapt to new things. Our imagination and ability to deal in the theoretical that makes humans above mere animals. "What a piece of work is man, how noble in reason!"

Then why didn't you say vagina? I have difficulty taking an argument with immature and juvenile synonyms seriously.

Because I didnt. As for what you do or do not take seriously thats your choice. Not mine.

As for the rest of the discussion here we are drifitng away from porn and into animal "rights" (which IMO they have as many or as few as their owners give them) and animal cruelty discussion.

Beastilaity is sick and disgustign I'll not disagree with that. that it is at the very least potentially harmful and dangerous to all involved human or animal I'll even agree with. That it is up into the abuse and cruelty region I'll shrug my shoulders and say that on a case by case situational consideration then maybe yeah. maybe nah.

Either way you are right humans as the stewards of earth should be responsible and caring. unfortunately as the highest thing on the food chain due to our big brains we have a bit of an ego as a species. Deal with that and the rest can fall into place.

[AFPheonix]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I've seen people that would kick a dog for wagging its tail too loud and be the kindest thing to kids and vice versa. there isnt always a correlation between the two. At least enough that I've seen.

Wait, what? There's a well documented correlation between animal abuse and sociopathic behavior against humans. You may see people in public be nice to their kids, but I know and you know that at home it may be a whole different story. Hell, there was an elder in our church who seriously physically abused his kids. I remember because mom was always telling us, "why aren't you as well behaved as so-and-so's children?" Why? Because we weren't scared shitless of getting the crap kicked out of us as soon as we were out of public view.

[Seshat]

I created a thread for animal welfare debating, to let people join in who aren't interested in the porn debate and have skipped this thread.

Follow this link to the Great Animal Welfare Debate.

[rahmota]

There's a well documented correlation between animal abuse and sociopathic behavior against humans.

*shrug* maybe. Yeah theres the old wives tale that if a man'll kick a dog hes more n likely gonna kick a kid or be mean to someone.

The point I was trying to make was that there is animal care, animal abuse, and animal cruelty. Kicking a dog for yapping is in the abuse range, tying it up by its tail is cruelty and bestiality is not really in any of these three categories IMO. TO be honest I dont care enough if a person wants to eff a horse to get worked up one way or the other. As long as 1) I dont gotta see it, and 2) that person dont wann try and do anythign with me or mine involving it. I dont care. They are a consenting human adult, the other is just an animal. The only "crime" I might see is if they didnt own the animal they are effing. Then it might come down to tampering with or damaging someone elses property. As thats all an animal is, property. You cannot rape an animal. It is property that would be like sayign you could rape a toaster.

Beastilaity while sick and disgusting is not somethign I care enough about to want to deal with. At worst it is a property crime. At best its a rather twisted way of getting your rocks off, at least in my own subjective opinion which is all porn comes down to anyhow.

My friend thats a homosexual finds regular hetero porn to be quite disgusting and sick and twisted but has utterly no problem watchign two guys buttfuck each other. Thats one of the biggest issues about what is and is not porn. It mainly all comes down to subjective views and values.

[Sylvia727]

Back on topic:

I think all porn manufacturers have a responsibility to ensure that no living thing is injured or law is broken in their porn shots. If they violate this, every individual responsible (including bystanders like camera operators who didn't get help for the victims) should be punished at least as severely as private citizens who violate this law. So in a porn shot with an underage actress, the hiring director and anyone else who knew should be convicted of statutory rape.

There is a correlation between violent porn and violent rape, but I don't know the specifics. Essentially, porn can act as a trigger for an already disturbed individual. As I've said previously, I don't see any perfect way to balance the privacy of the general population with the protection of the disturbed from their triggers. The best way I can see is to make it illegal, or a violation of parole, for a violent criminal to own violent porn. The responsibility is then on the disturbed individual to avoid his triggers, with the state enforcing penalties if he fails.

[Seshat]

I think all porn manufacturers have a responsibility to ensure that no living thing is injured or law is broken in their porn shots.

And what if they're fine by the laws of country/state A (where the porn is made), but not by the laws of country/state B (where it is sold)?

[rahmota]

And what if they're fine by the laws of country/state A (where the porn is made), but not by the laws of country/state B (where it is sold)?

And thats where you get into the situation we have in the US delaign with stuff from Japan or other adult materials.

Like I bet you didnt know but its illegal to sell vibrators/dildos in some states here in the US but not others. I think its still illegal to even own one in the state of georgia. So bringing one into there fr a state thats illegal may be contraband...

Rather sad.

Same way with some hentai and euro porn where the age of consent is different. IRC britain allows topless females to be published at age 17 whiel stateside anythign under 18 is verboten.

So what happens is that it becomes illegal to sell it here. And if your bring it in or otherwise possess it you can have some serious to minor criminal charges brought.