Was this student justified in raising hell?

[Greenday]

Telling the student that arriving 30 minutes late because he refused to plan for the final is unacceptable isn't handling it badly at all. Everyone has to follow the same rules.

[Gravekeeper]

Telling the student that arriving 30 minutes late because he refused to plan for the final is unacceptable isn't handling it badly at all. Everyone has to follow the same rules.

Perhaps I should rephrase: "Covered his ass better"?

First rule of CS Club: Emphathize, repeat problem, profess to understanding. Then firmly maintain they're shit out of luck. Leave no wedges that they can whine or bitch through. >.>

[AdminAssistant]

Whether he was late or not, the teacher was still going to be there for that alloted time.

Actually no. When the last person finishes the exam, I'm outta there.

To me it sounds like this professor wanted to punish him simply for being late. And when you're paying them money, it's not much to ask for a little flexibility, especially when the flexibility is asking nothing of the professor other than to do his job.

Students should be punished for being late. And don't confuse students with customers. There's a difference. But here's the thing. The student KNEW there was a conflict. He didn't plan accordingly. And when he started to exhibit threatening behavior, not to mention disrupting the students who could be bothered to show up on time, the professor threw him out. I would have done the exact same thing.

[DrFaroohk]

Some random thoughts on the student's side of things...

1) Was there a specific rule the professor made the students know about? Ahem "Students more than 5 minutes late for an exam will automatically fail." It's the rulemaker's responsibility to make sure the rules are made clearly available to everyone.

2) You can't just assume "The student should have known better." The professor should've known better too. I'm sick of hearing how teachers and profs are so overburdened and have sooooo much to do. Screw off. You ever think about what students have to do? They have to learn material and do papers on some things that are totally irrelevent to the real world, have to pay for this education, manage personal lives, internships, and deal with a lot of pompous ass professors who think students have it easy.

3) The professor only offered one reason why the student was not allowed in, which was that the student could have gotten the answered, even though said student offered proof he did not. Professor seemed like he was enforcing rules for the sake of rules, not for any good reason. THAT, my friends, is the most unacceptable thing I've seen thus far.

4) People need to get over themselves. "AWwwww man I lost my TEST ZONE MENTALITY BECAUSE SOMEONE OPENED A DOOR AND I HEARD FOOTSTEPS!!!! OH NO!" If you're that fucking unprepared for a test, you deserve to fail. The fact is that this kid being late did not actually affect anything, and the disturbance was caused by the professor himself. If, and only if, there was even a rule about lateness in the first place, it was violated in letter only, and not spirit, which to me is far more important, as I'm sure it is to all rationale, intelligent, logical, non-stupid people.

[ExRetailDrone]

The student was a douche. It sounds to me from reading that that he knew about the time of the exam, and instead of either making arrangements with his work to get out earlier or talking to the professor about what he could do in that situation, he decided to assume that he could just mosey on in at the normal class time (30 minutes late for the exam) and everything would be peachy. I'm sorry but no, college doesn't work that way. I would think that paying for a class would make a person want to succeed, and if there are known conflicts that they get resolved beforehand. Professors need to have policies, otherwise the learning environment will not be very efficient, and they need to stick to those policies or they will get walked over. My husband is finishing up his first full-time professorship, and he has a very strict attendance policy. He gives so many absences no-questions-asked, and after that the student's grade will start decreasing. It is up to the students to plan accordingly and save those absences for if they really need it. If they just don't feel like coming to class and use up all their absences, and then they really get sick? Too bad, you should have come to class. It's not the professor's responsibility to hand-hold their students through the semester. The students are supposedly adults, they should damn well act like it.

2) You can't just assume "The student should have known better." The professor should've known better too. I'm sick of hearing how teachers and profs are so overburdened and have sooooo much to do. Screw off. You ever think about what students have to do? They have to learn material and do papers on some things that are totally irrelevent to the real world, have to pay for this education, manage personal lives, internships, and deal with a lot of pompous ass professors who think students have it easy.

I'm sorry, but this is utter bullshit. Professors do oftentimes have a lot on their plate if they're any good at what they're doing. My husband currently is in the process of reading 25 essay drafts from one of his 4 composition classes (all of which are turning in drafts between today and tomorrow, and he has to get the drafts back to them by Thursday and Friday of this week). These drafts are supposed to be 3000 words, or about 9-10 pages (also something to note... they've known about this draft for almost a month, and yet some couldn't be bothered to turn in more than 3 pages... is that my husband's fault?). But you know what? He manages his time in order to get all of his work done on time, just like a student should be able to do. So don't give me that bullshit that a student has soooo much more to do than a professor, because that holds no water whatsoever.

And for the record, my mom was also a high school math teacher for years, and the amount of work she did outside the classroom was staggering. It's all about time management. If you can't manage your time, that's your own fault.

[Kheldarson]

See, even as a teacher, I sympathize a bit with the student. I was that student at one point. I had a midterm for a notorious hardass teacher who honestly would lock the door on test day. I'd been up studying, set my alarm...woke up to find the alarm had been mis-set (I still don't know how that happened) and it was five minutes after the start of the exam.

I don't think I've ever run so hard. But when I got to class I knocked politely at the door, a couple of others students in class called his attention to it, when he came, I explained (still panting) what happened and asked if I could please take the test.

He let me. I don't know if it was because I honestly looked like I had just gotten out of bed and run or if it was because I was polite or because I'd never been late before and actually participated. But I counted myself lucky and made sure to get there on time from then on.

BUT...I wasn't assuming he'd let me in. I was hoping. Two, I didn't think it was at all okay for me to just waltz in late just because of...whatever. Three, if he had said no, I would've left. Upset, yes, maybe gone to the professor later and asked for a reprieve, but I would've left at that time. You do NOT ask for favors by making a scene.

So, I have to say, while I sympathize, the student was an idiot.

[ExRetailDrone]

I had a midterm for a notorious hardass teacher who honestly would lock the door on test day. I'd been up studying, set my alarm...woke up to find the alarm had been mis-set (I still don't know how that happened) and it was five minutes after the start of the exam.

There's a big difference between sleeping through your alarm accidentally and having a known conflict that you decided to do nothing to remedy beforehand.

I had an incident like you did, only my professor wasn't a hardass. I had overslept (although by the time I woke up the exam hadn't started yet) and booked it to the exam. Unfortunately, I went to the wrong building first I was lucky that I was allowed to sit the exam since I was about 15 minutes late by the time I got there. But if I hadn't been allowed, it would have fully fallen on my shoulders because it was my own responsibility to get myself there on-time.

[DrFaroohk]

I'm sorry, but this is utter bullshit. Professors do oftentimes have a lot on their plate if they're any good at what they're doing. My husband currently is in the process of reading 25 essay drafts from one of his 4 composition classes (all of which are turning in drafts between today and tomorrow, and he has to get the drafts back to them by Thursday and Friday of this week). These drafts are supposed to be 3000 words, or about 9-10 pages (also something to note... they've known about this draft for almost a month, and yet some couldn't be bothered to turn in more than 3 pages... is that my husband's fault?). But you know what? He manages his time in order to get all of his work done on time, just like a student should be able to do. So don't give me that bullshit that a student has soooo much more to do than a professor, because that holds no water whatsoever.

And for the record, my mom was also a high school math teacher for years, and the amount of work she did outside the classroom was staggering. It's all about time management. If you can't manage your time, that's your own fault.

I wasn't trying to say that students OR professors had more to do - but I've heard many professors trying to use the excuse that they have too much to do. like "You should've posted the rules more clearly." "Sorry, I'm a PROFESSOR, and I have too much to do!" Everyone is busy. I'm a stay at home dad and I don't consider myself any more or less busy than the president. We have different things to do, but we're both busy in one way or another.

[Greenday]

I wasn't trying to say that students OR professors had more to do - but I've heard many professors trying to use the excuse that they have too much to do. like "You should've posted the rules more clearly." "Sorry, I'm a PROFESSOR, and I have too much to do!" Everyone is busy. I'm a stay at home dad and I don't consider myself any more or less busy than the president. We have different things to do, but we're both busy in one way or another.

A cop pulls you over for breaking some rule. Do you think "You should have made the rules more clear?" will honestly hold up? This is no different. If you are unsure of the rules on being late (especially when you know for a fact you will be late), it is solely your responsibility to ask the teacher to clear it up. The teacher is not a mind-reader and cannot possibly just know that you won't understand it. When a teacher asks "Any questions?" and no one responds, they are going to rightfully assume no one has questions.

[Mytical]

Afraid I have to side with the teacher here. I'll even use the "Failure to plan on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part". We won't ever know for sure, because the student never asked, but if he had approached the teacher earlier most likely some arrangement could have been made. The student comes across as a typical SC (since he paid..he can be considered a 'customer') to me.

[Hyena Dandy]

I'm afraid I don't have any sympathy for the student.

If he'd been called into work suddenly, and without warning, and been unable to contact the teacher, I'd understand. But while I understand, and I feel sorry for him, if he KNEW he had work, and he KNEW he couldn't make the test time, then its not his fault.

He certainly does not deserve a refund.

And the "could have cheated" excuse does not seem weak to me. People get really creative with cheating, and 'show up late, get the answers from someone who took it' is a common method.

I feel more sorry for the teacher. Who had to deal with this asshole complaining to everyone because the teacher was enforcing a very reasonable rule.

[DrFaroohk]

A cop pulls you over for breaking some rule. Do you think "You should have made the rules more clear?" will honestly hold up? This is no different. If you are unsure of the rules on being late (especially when you know for a fact you will be late), it is solely your responsibility to ask the teacher to clear it up. The teacher is not a mind-reader and cannot possibly just know that you won't understand it. When a teacher asks "Any questions?" and no one responds, they are going to rightfully assume no one has questions.

Bad example. Look, you ever heard the phrase "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"? That only holds up in the information of what law is what is made available to people. Our laws are made available. A quick google search can answer most legal questions anyone has, directly from the state's website. They're made available.

But yes, the teacher is still responsible for making the rules clear. Whether the school administration agrees or not, he's still responsible too.


This is of course assuming he didn't already make said rule clear to the students. Maybe he did, but I didn't see anywhere that he did.

[Andara Bledin]

But yes, the teacher is still responsible for making the rules clear. Whether the school administration agrees or not, he's still responsible too.

This is of course assuming he didn't already make said rule clear to the students. Maybe he did, but I didn't see anywhere that he did.

The student knew he had a conflict, therefore it was up to the student to resolve it.

And "resolve it" doesn't mean ignore it and expect things to work out anyway.

^-.-^

[Rageaholic]

I just don't think this was necessary. Sure, he should have alerted the teacher ahead of time (fail on his part there), but I see no reason why the teacher couldn't have let him take the test. I don't even think the rules were unfair, but neither would letting him take the test in the first place which would have worked out better for both of them. To me it sounds like the professor has a bug up his ass about students being late and wanted to punish him.

As for the cheating arguement, I don't see how he could cheat unless the students got the test back immediately afterwards. Even then, it's a stretch since he obviously come back right from work.

Here's a better question though, should he have not gotten his money back?

Personally, I think they owed him that, and he was right in raising hell until he got his money back. I too would be pretty pissed to have paid money only to be denied what I paid for just because some guy has a bug up his ass. It's not like student was asking for the guy to do anything extra or do something he didn't have the power. This was clearly the professors choice to deny him taking the test. He could have let him take the test without having to do any extra work or stay overtime, but he insisted on being difficult. And when the student is paying money only for them to treat him like a bad employee, that's not good.

[AdminAssistant]

To me it sounds like the professor has a bug up his ass about students being late and wanted to punish him.

And good for him. Look, a college education is a privilege, not a right, and if the student didn't want to go to the trouble of showing up on time, then why should the professor bend their rules to accommodate him? Student didn't plan properly and got punished. Boo-fucking-hoo.

Here's a better question though, should he have not gotten his money back?

Personally, I don't think so, but I can understand why the administration would do it. Better to shut the jerk up than risk a lawsuit. Although, if I had been the professor, I would have accused the student of harassment and threatening and disruptive behavior, but that's me.

I've been a TA and leading discussion sections for around 4 years. After even a little while of dealing with 18-22 year olds, mixed with non-traditionals who think they deserve special treatment because they're older, you develop a very, very, very low threshold for bullshit. And one of the first things you learn is to never make exceptions. That opens you up to all kinds of headache. You establish a rule, and you enforce it, no exceptions made. And you also make it clear that if *anybody* has a conflict that they must let you know ahead of time. The student could have probably taken an alternate exam the day before, or taken the exam at a different location (to prevent cheating, which is a serious issue.)

He isn't a special snowflake because he has a job, and he is not. a. customer. My students don't pay my salary, at least not directly. Yeah, he's paying tuition. That money guarantees him the opportunity to earn an education. It has to be earned. You don't just write a check and get a diploma. It's amazing how many students (and their parents) think that. Sorry, but the world doesn't owe you a damn thing and neither do I. You don't like the rules of my classroom, then take somebody else's class.