Was this student justified in raising hell?

[Andara Bledin]

Personally, I think they owed him that, and he was right in raising hell until he got his money back.

Nope, they didn't owe him that. They owed him the opportunity to take the class and learn from the teacher, which they did.

Honestly, the guy owes everybody else that had to put up with his throwing a tantrum while they were attempting to take the final an apology.

Sure, the story has a 'little guy' appeal, but rationally speaking, the guy was a jerk.

^-.-^

[insertNameHere]

Both are wrong, also I guess it should have been made clear to be on-time. But the student should have probably informed the professor and asked if it was alright. However, I see no problem with showing up 30 min late if your working, maybe he has a job that doesn't permit getting time off. It doesn't sound like this was an actual final, more of a "standard test" that should have been given during the normal class times that are scheduled. I guess it is nice if he was willing to give an extra 30 minutes for the test but what about people in other classes I often did courses back to back. 10 minutes to get across campus.

As we all know from CS, the annoying customer is more likely to get satisfaction from something they feel wasn't right.

So the prof was a dick, so was the student, they had a pissing match and tied. I know some profs that as long as you showed up whenever it was all good, I knew others that made it clear don't be late or not allowed in my room. but then again the dicks usually had everything in writing when you walked in the door so you knew what was expected and could drop and find a new instructor

[Andara Bledin]

It doesn't sound like this was an actual final, more of a "standard test" that should have been given during the normal class times that are scheduled.

From the OP:

Now, on the day of the final, the exam started a half hour or so before the normal class time.

It was finals time, so the school schedule would have been non-conflicting.

^-.-^

[HYHYBT]

If he didn't care enough to make special arrangements ahead of time, why should the teacher care enough to make a special concession for him?

False premise. You have no basis for assuming "he didn't care enough to." He didn't see any *reason* to, which is completely different.

Unless the class had a stated policy that you could not take a test if you were late, there is zero excuse for not allowing the test to be taken so long as there is time left in the period.

Interestingly enough he probably learned more important lessons that was on the exam, namely how to properly manage his time. It's not like this was a surprise exam. He had plenty of time to either arrange for another way to take the test or to be able to leave work early so he could be there on time. He chose to do neither.

He already knew how to manage time: the test was known to require much less time than the period it was scheduled for.

Then as I got about halfway through the end, I realized, "Whose fault is it that he didn't plan ahead for this?"

Why do so many seem to think (or rather assume) that he didn't plan ahead, based on the information he had?

Except most of the screwing came from the student making assumptions that were obviously mistaken.

Far from obvious. People "assume" things all the time without even realizing it, simply because it would never occur to them that the other is even a possibility.

Also I know for a lot of exams they will not let anyone leave until 30 minutes have passed and will not let anyone in after 30 minutes for exactly this reason, so basically it'll come down to exactly when he showed up and how much notice about the exam time was given.

I've never heard of anything remotely like that until now, and have had exactly *one* class ever where being late for an exam meant not being allowed to take it. And in that class, it was spelled out on the syllabus and explained the first day.

But here's the thing. The student KNEW there was a conflict. He didn't plan accordingly.

ABSOLUTELY, 100% WRONG. The only reason there was a conflict was that the instructor required the exam to be begun at the beginning of the allotted time. Did the student know that in advance? Almost certainly not, or the whole thing never would have happened.

Professors need to have policies, otherwise the learning environment will not be very efficient, and they need to stick to those policies or they will get walked over.

All true... but equally, those policies MUST be communicated *in advance* for it to be reasonable to enforce them.That's a burden on the professor to spell out their policies clearly, NOT a burden on the students to find them out on their own.

It's all about time management. If you can't manage your time, that's your own fault.

Indeed... but it's not an issue of time management if you've made your plans on the best information you have.

I agree, once it was clear he would not be allowed to take the test no matter what, he should have handled it from there in a way less disruptive to his classmates. But then, it's hardly a situation he's likely to have thought out how to handle in advance

[guywithashovel]

I've always taken issue with this notion that a lot of students have of "We pay your salary! We should be able to do x!"

Yeah, I get that they're paying for their education. However, they doesn't give them a right to tell the school how it should operate. It also doesn't mean they should be able to come and go as they please and get by without doing the necessary work. I hear this sentiment sometimes from the students in the school I work for. I'm sorry, but at this school, we train students to be things like medical assistants, pharmacy technicians, and other such things. Frankly, I don't you doing work like that if you haven't done extensive classroom work on your subject and taken (and passed) strenuous exams.

[insertNameHere]

I've always taken issue with this notion that a lot of students have of "We pay your salary! We should be able to do x!"

Yeah, I get that they're paying for their education. However, they doesn't give them a right to tell the school how it should operate. It also doesn't mean they should be able to come and go as they please and get by without doing the necessary work. I hear this sentiment sometimes from the students in the school I work for. I'm sorry, but at this school, we train students to be things like medical assistants, pharmacy technicians, and other such things. Frankly, I don't you doing work like that if you haven't done extensive classroom work on your subject and taken (and passed) strenuous exams.

double edged sword, both sides are right. I definitely want my pharm techs to not be likely to kill me.

However, I also had a prof that we wanted what we paid for instead of him going to wikipedia to teach the class on a regular basis. having no general understanding of where he wanted to take the course. Just like there are crappy students there are crappy profs that shouldn't be teaching. And when half our class FAILED the test it isn't because we screwed around it was because we weren't taught.

Only reason I got one question right was I knew the professor and one of the IPs he liked to use, so I worked to find it and took a guess as to what the answer was. I actually had no idea how to do the problem correctly. I just took a lucky guess and got a question right.

[DrFaroohk]

The student knew he had a conflict, therefore it was up to the student to resolve it.

And "resolve it" doesn't mean ignore it and expect things to work out anyway.

^-.-^

Why not? did he have prior notifaction there was a conflict? As far as he knew, there was a 2.5 hour window where he had to show up and do the test. He gets off work with ample time to finish the test.

Do you really expect people to check in with someone else over every little thing? That's what it sounds like. He wasn't aware of a conflict so it wasn't in his mind to ask. If he were, in this case, to really want to cover his ass, he'd be asking all kinds of questions.

[Ladeeda]

In what universe has it ever been OK to be deliberately late to class without getting the OK from the teacher?

EVER?

For class, test, lab, lecture, there is no excuse. You show up on time, make prior arrangements if you can't be on time, have a good excuse if you ARE late, and deal with the consequences like a grown up. This student needed to put on his big-boy panties and take responsibility.

[Andara Bledin]

Do you really expect people to check in with someone else over every little thing?

Every little thing? Since when is a final a "little thing?"

He knew when the final started, he knew when he got off work, and he just blew off any idea that showing up half an hour late might be a problem. He made an assumption, a bad one, and then threw a tantrum when he didn't get his way.

^-.-^

[Greenday]

Hm, how could one cheat you say? Story time!

I had one class junior year where our adjunct teacher said we could show up any time we wanted between 6pm and 8pm for which the final was scheduled. Seeing as I just wanted to get it over with, I went at 6pm. Only one other person was there at 6. We both left at the same time only to find the rest of the class waiting outside and were immediately pummeled with questions of what EXACTLY was on the test. They had their books and notebooks out, ready to search for the answers.

Moral of the story: Assuming he couldn't possibly have cheated in that time is a terrible assumption.

[DrFaroohk]

Of course, but assuming he couldn't have cheated while he was at work is quite correct.

[Rageaholic]

Originally Posted by SuckyStudent
Now, on the day of the final, the exam started a half hour or so before the normal class time.

This makes me even more for the student than I was before (I didn't catch it the first time). And yes, he probably should have told the professor, but was it really necessary? Did the professor really have to know that he would be late? Would him being late had forced the professor to make any changes? Had the student demanded that the professor stayed 30 minutes after his normal time just for him, THEN I would be calling the student an uber douchebag. But that's not what happened. He probably could have finished the test and still had time left over had he been allowed, but he was not given that chance.

I think HYHYBT said it best, you can't really say the student didn't care about his education just because he showed up late. That's like a false dichotomy, "If you care, do this". Just because he showed up late, doesn't mean he didn't care. If he didn't care, he wouldn't have shown up at all. For all we know, he could have studied like hell. To deny him the chance to even finish the test during the remaining class time just because he was late sounds like a real dick move.

[Ginger Tea]

Given that alot of tests can be answered purely as multiple choice papers, I did see the proper name round the start, having the same set of questions but in a different order is not a hard thing to do.
Until you get your paper, how would you know that the person you asked who was leaving would even have the same set of questions as you.

When I had an exam to sit on an evening class it was a separate fee, I'm assuming he got a refund for the exam fee only not the whole course, I would expect a brain suck to be used to 'refund' all knowledge provided if it were the case.
Now my classes being in the evening I originaly had no schedule conflicts and the exam was in the day time and I booked anual leave or had the day off anyway, but I made sure work knew I would not be able to attend as I had paid money to sit this exam.

When I took another evening class two years ago, my finishing time had extended and we were in the midst of changing to a split shift to compensate, being an all dayer employee, I could be and sometimes was late for class.
Now I am on a split shift, but no fixed cycle of start times, just days on/off, if I were to ever retake the class, or just another for shits and giggles, I could say "look, I have this class every Tuesday at 7, I can not work the late shift on Tuesday's for the next X weeks."
Same with the exam being early than normal, if you can go to work and then class during your normal working hours but have to be there early just say
"Look boss, I have an exam on the 'whenever' and need the day off or at least to leave an hour early."
If boss says no to either option, then you atleast have fair warning to then tell the professor you will be late due to circumstances beyond your controll.

On a side note, one guy at work always had Thursday off so he could do a class that was nothing to do with work, work let him have Thursday off as unpaid leave, or he could come in to work on what would be his day off, except for the week we work all 7 days, then a swap isn't an option.
Work was flexible to him doing this and if I took a day class, I'm sure work would be just as flexible, but once he was bitching and moaning that he had worked X days in a row, the way our rota goes, 7 is the longest without doing overtime, yet he was counting his class in his numbers, a class he chose to take outside of work, that you idiot was a day off, what you do on your day off is your own thing, if it means running a marathon, don't phone in sick the next day cos you are too damn tired from running.

[Andara Bledin]

When I had an exam to sit on an evening class it was a separate fee, I'm assuming he got a refund for the exam fee only not the whole course, I would expect a brain suck to be used to 'refund' all knowledge provided if it were the case.

I haven't run into this. The final is part of the class itself, the tests aren't separate.

^-.-^

[Irving Patrick Freleigh]

What I'd like to know is:

1. When did that poster know his work schedule for the day in question, and

2. When was he told the exam was going to be earlier than the normal class? Or was he even told that would be the case? Or was he even present when the class was told that?

This would make it clear whether he knew there would be a conflict and did nothing to address it, or he just didn't know.

I read the story on the tvtropes site hoping to find this out if possible, but didn't. The three people who responded to the story were on the professor's side. For the time being, I am to.