Respect

[Hyena Dandy]

We need to learn respect. Not just on this forum, not just in person, or in politics. Every person needs to learn respect. It is the only way we will accomplish anything. By according to each and every person a basic human dignity. If they believe something different, something untrue, even something ridiculous, we need to show them respect.

It doesn't matter if what they believe is political, or religious, or economic... Even the WORST person deserves respect.

There are people different from us. There will ALWAYS be people different from us. But cute little mispellings and snide comments won't heal that gap. IT just makes it wider.

I believe we are all God's children. I believe every life is valuable. But blame God or Chance or a flying monkey, every person is still a miracle. Even starting a few generations back, even starting in the 1850s or so, its so incredible... Its so unlikely that this person would marry that person would marry that person would have this person and on and on to come down to you. Or me. Or Raps, or Boozy, or Ghel, or Greenday, or Andara, or CrashHelmet, or FArchivist. One thing could have gone differently, and not even a big thing, and you, whoever's reading this, would not have been born.

This isn't about abortion or something, though it may sound like it. What I'm trying to say here is that EVERYBODY is a miracle, just by their very existence.

The world is beautiful... So beautiful... And it has SIX BILLION people on it and the only way any of us are getting anywhere is to work together. Respect each-other...

Democrat versus Republican

Religious vs Non-religious

Irish vs English

Israeli vs Palestinian

The only way any problem is going to be settled is by someone agreeing to put the sword down first. To respect each-other. To acknowledge that someone else feels different, thinks different, looks different, and that makes them, at the worst wrong. It doesn't make them evil, or worthy of scorn.

So please... This may be the wrong place to put it. I don't have anywhere else to. if I would I'd put it on the top of the Empire State Building.

Maybe this is all aprt of my feverish mental state, but I want to say it. I need to say it. Please...

Don't say "I'll stop being aggressive when they do." They probably feel the same way about you. And if they keep being aggressive, that's fine. It'll take time. It doesn't mean you should be just as vicious back...

Please.

Let's try to have some respect... I feel like I'm collapsing. I can't take it anymore... Catch me.

[Mytical]

One day we might get there, but I am losing hope that it will come to pass. Though I do believe respect for a person is earned not given, respect for who/what they are is another thing entirely. We should celebrate our differences, not fight over them..because it is what adds spice to life.

[Ghel]

We had a thread about respect last month. It didn't seem to accomplish much.

If they believe something different, something untrue, even something ridiculous, we need to show them respect.

Unless that belief is harmful to themselves or others. Or unless they're trying to pass legislation that forces others to behave as if they believed the same way.

I'd also like to point out (once again) that there's a difference between being disrespectful to an idea (such as a religious belief) and being disrespectful to a person.

It doesn't matter if what they believe is political, or religious, or economic... Even the WORST person deserves respect.

No, a mass murderer or serial killer does not deserve respect. A rapist does not deserve respect. An accomplice-after-the-fact who hides pedophiles from the law and facilitates their re-offence does not deserve respect.

[Andara Bledin]

Unless that belief is harmful to themselves or others.

Honestly, nobody has the right to stop someone harming themselves (unless they can honestly be declared as not competent to care for themselves).

^-.-^

[Ghel]

Honestly, nobody has the right to stop someone harming themselves (unless they can honestly be declared as not competent to care for themselves).

Back up a second. I was talking about how I don't feel I should have to show someone respect if their beliefs cause themselves or others harm. Nowhere did I say that my decreased respect for them would prompt any sort of action from me.

On the other hand, if someone I knew and cared about was harming themselves (for any reason), I would do whatever I could to stop it. That would usually amount to talking to them about what they're doing that's harmful or, if it's severe enough, alerting the authorities. I think it's well within my rights to talk to my brother about getting into rehab if his drinking habit is affecting his health, his marriage, or his job. I think it's well within my rights to talk to my niece's parents if I discover she's cutting herself. In fact, I think it would be wrong of me NOT to intervene in either of these cases.

If you want an example that deals with the person's beliefs, I can do that, too. If my mother is tithing so much to her church that she can't pay her bills, I'm going to talk to her about changing that. If my uncle thinks, based on his religious beliefs, that it's ok to beat his wife, I'm going to try to convince my aunt to leave him and call the authorities. Again, I think it would be wrong of me NOT to interevene in either of these cases.

(These are all hypothetical examples.)

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I'd also like to point out (once again) that there's a difference between being disrespectful to an idea (such as a religious belief) and being disrespectful to a person.
.

You mean like "hate the sin, love the sinner?"

[Ghel]

You mean like "hate the sin, love the sinner?"

No, it's not like that at all. Let's examine why. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is used almost exclusively with the "sin" of homosexuality. I think pretty much everybody here will agree that homosexuality is an aspect of a person's life that they cannot change.* But people can, and frequently do, change their ideas or viewpoints. Granted, some people hold ideas so closely that any criticism against the idea feels, to them, like criticism against them. This is especially true among strongly religious individuals.


*This isn't something I want to debate in this thread. I'm just making a comparison.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

It's used against drinking, promiscuous sex, so called "shacking up", drug addictions, and any other "vice" someone considers a sin.

I see no difference in that concept and the idea that disrespecting someone's philosophy, religion, or lifestyle does not disrespect them as people on some level.

I can respect a belief or philosophy or lifestyle that is different than my own. I do not feel compelled to hold it in disrespect just because I don't agree with it.

It doesn't matter if idiots use the term "hate the sin, love the sinner" to describe homosexuals. They also use it for any other thing they want to feel okay about holding in contempt when they know that on some level, they shouldn't.

Okay, let's take religion out the equation. I'm in the SCA. That's my choice. We are a bunch of dorks that like to run around in silly costumes on the weekends. At least, a lot of folks think that about us. If you came out with "The SCA is a bunch of dorks that don't deserve respect" could you blame me for believing that you felt that way about me personally?

[Mytical]

People just love to feel 'superior' to somebody. Regardless if it is a religious 'zealot' because their religion, or an atheist who thinks all religious people are nuts..they MUST be right..so they can feel superior to somebody. We are all unfortunately guilty of it.

'An it harm none, do as thy will'

[Ghel]

Okay, let's take religion out the equation. I'm in the SCA. That's my choice. We are a bunch of dorks that like to run around in silly costumes on the weekends. At least, a lot of folks think that about us. If you came out with "The SCA is a bunch of dorks that don't deserve respect" could you blame me for believing that you felt that way about me personally?

Well, I wouldn't say something like that. Even if I felt that SCA is a bunch of dorks (which I don't), SCA doesn't cause harm and the participants generally know the difference between fantasy and reality. Besides, SCA is more of an activity than an idea.

I thought about it for a while, and I came up with something that would fit what you are trying to say: "Anti-vaxxers are idiots that don't deserve my respect." That is something I would say. Anti-vax is, for the most part, not religious-based, but it is based on a false (or at least unproven) belief that vaccines do more harm than good. By not getting themselves or their children vaccinated, they are causing harm to, not just themselves and their families, but the surrounding communities as well. But if I discuss the issue of vax/anti-vax, I would talk about the relative merits of the issue, not whether a particular anti-vaxxer is an idiot. The same as I do with any other subject.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

The SCA is more than an activity, as anyone who has it as a lifestyle will agree. It most definitely is an idea, a mindset, and a moral code. That's why I used it as an example, so sorry I didn't make that more clear.

Okay. Let's use your anti vax argument. There are compelling arguments for and against vaccinations. There are intelligent, educated people on both sides of that argument. Some have looked at evidence and decided one way, some have done the same and decided the other.

Some of the people on both sides of that debate are, in fact idiots. But not all of them are. But according to what you're saying, if they reach a different conclusion than you have, they are idiots and do not deserve your respect.

I'm getting from you that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a idiot. That may or may not be true, but that's what I'm getting.

So what I'm taking away from this is that you are defending the rights of people to disrespect anyone they don't agree with. Which people do all the time. Hence the problem the OP pointed out.

[Andara Bledin]

Well, I wouldn't say something like that. Even if I felt that SCA is a bunch of dorks (which I don't), SCA doesn't cause harm and the participants generally know the difference between fantasy and reality.

As Kinkoid mentioned, for a number of people it's a lifestyle, not a hobby. There are some, just as with any large group, that are involved to the detriment of other aspects of their lives and the lives of those around them.

I'm getting from you that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a idiot. That may or may not be true, but that's what I'm getting.

That's the general tenor I tend to pick up as well.

^-.-^

[Ghel]

But according to what you're saying, if they reach a different conclusion than you have, they are idiots and do not deserve your respect.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that people who ignore 150+ years of germ theory in favor of a view that has scant evidence are idiots. People who endanger not only themselves and their families but their neighbors as well by not getting immunized are not worthy of respect.

It has little to do with whether I agree with them. It has to do with people ignoring evidence, causing harm, and trying to force others (through legislation, etc.) to act as if they hold the same viewpoint.

[Here's where I address the idea, as I try to always do.] I don't want to get too far sidetracked, but you say there are "compelling arguments" against vaccinations. I'm curious to know what those are, since [non-religious] anti-vaxxers tend to cite a single study linking vaccines to autism - a study which has been thoroughly debunked and its author discredited.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

It has little to do with whether I agree with them. It has to do with people ignoring evidence, causing harm, and trying to force others (through legislation, etc.) to act as if they hold the same viewpoint.
.

Well, again, to use your anti-vax argument, you could apply this accusation to either side.

I have no intention of turning this thread into an anti vax/pro vax thread. That's not the point. Although if we had such a thread, I'd have to pick a side as I have studied up a bit on both views and agree/disagree with parts of both sides.

But it makes an excellent example, at least for me. Because I can see both sides and I'm on the fence.

You say that people are still anti-vax in the face of evidence that it does not cause autism and they are using a falsehood to justify their stance and that's why they have not "earned your respect", as much as I hate that phrase.

That suggests to me that that is the only point you know about in the anti vax camp. Even if you remove the autism angle, there are many reasons that anti vax people are anti vax that have nothing to do with that that OR that have nothing to do with religion, but concerns over efficacy, safety, long term effects, conflicts of interests, negligence, and misleading information. You don't know about any of these things, evidently, but yet you make your stand that the other camp are all idiots and undeserving of your respect.

In short, you don't know all the facts, yet you assume that you do. You don't question what you know, and everyone else is an idiot.

It doesn't matter what I think of the issue here. However, I will say this: I WISH I knew all the facts. The truth is that nobody does. If you think there's no way at all that you might be wrong about this or anything else, then you clearly don't have all the facts. Because if you really, truly are beyond a doubt sure of your stance, you're either the smartest person on Earth or you don't know what you don't know.

You might be wrong. You might be right. Stranger things have happened.

So before you start proclaiming that other human beings don't deserve your respect because they don't believe as you do, you might remember that they're thinking the same thing about you.

[Ghel]

Although if we had such a thread, I'd have to pick a side as I have studied up a bit on both views and agree/disagree with parts of both sides.

That's exactly the point. We would discuss the merits of the argument. We would discuss evidence, research, etc. It would have nothing to do with people involved.

It doesn't matter what I think of the issue here. However, I will say this: I WISH I knew all the facts. The truth is that nobody does. If you think there's no way at all that you might be wrong about this or anything else, then you clearly don't have all the facts.

That's completely irrelevant. Nobody waits to form an opinion until they have all the facts. We all form opinions on scant evidence. If we value the truth, however, our opinions will change if we find contrary evidence. This has little to do with respect and more to do with valuing honesty and keeping an open mind.

So before you start proclaiming that other human beings don't deserve your respect because they don't believe as you do, you might remember that they're thinking the same thing about you.

You make it sound like I form my beliefs on the basis of what will make the most people like me. Nothing could be further from the truth. I form my beliefs based on what I think is real and true. If I find out I'm wrong, I change my beliefs, but I'm not going to change them because of how other people view me or my beliefs. I'm not about to compromise my integrity just so people will think better of me.

I expect people to use a similar method of guaging respect as I described in the previous thread on respect: Every time I meet a person, they start out at neutral. Their words and actions may move them up or down the scale into respect or disrespect. I will still treat them courteously, unless they are extremely far down into the disrespect end. But my view of someone ALWAYS starts at neutral.