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Zero Tolerance at schools

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  • Zero Tolerance at schools

    Instead of going off tangent with the school lunch thread. I want to comment on the bullshit zero tolerance policies that are in effect at many schools to keep kids safe, because they don't work and are overkill.

    In Jr High, one of my classmates was getting her ass beat by a much bigger girl, she was knocked to the ground and she raised her arms and fists to block the punches going to her face, never tried to punch back. She was arrested and taken to the juvenile detention center because she was "fighting", as you can't even raise your fists while cowering in a ball to protect your face.

    I forget if it was the Dean or asst principle that said she should have went and got a teacher instead of fighting.... except for the fact that anyone who has seen a fight at a school knows other students swarm around and there is not an easy way out until someone comes to break it up.

    When asked about if someone is attacking with a knife, we were told to get a teacher, not to defend ourselves even if it meant we got stabbed. When the active shooter question was given the same line of go get a teacher was given. (Actually we were also told not to flee the school for safety)


    I think zero tolerance really needs to be reevaluated to the point you should at least be allowed to block punches, maybe not actively return punches. But many of these polices breed mindless sheep who become accustomed to being walked all over.

  • #2
    Please tell me the girl who instigated the fight got in trouble too. Because that's more than enough fuckery as it is. It's bad enough that you can get in trouble for hitting back in self defense, but you can't even block attacks. And you go to Juvie for it?! Juvie simply for being on the recieving end of some asshole bully. Ow!

    That logic hurts.

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    • #3
      There is no logic involved in zero tolerance. No logic, no thought, no effort. Intelligence need not apply, it's all designed to drag everybody down to the lowest common denominator and then keep them there.

      Zero tolerance is the bullshit they use to keep kids from carrying their inhalers to class with them.

      Zero tolerance is the rule by which a kid who carries a keychain with a tiny plastic gun dangling from the end gets punished for bringing a gun to school.

      Zero tolerance is how they decide to suspend a kid for pulling a weapon hidden in a trash can out and taking it to the principal, despite the fact that the student who hid it there would have claimed it before anyone could have been brought to fetch it.

      Zero tolerance is a bunch of bullshit rules designed by lazy administrators who don't want the taxing burden of having to think and make informed decisions.

      ^-.-^
      Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

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      • #4
        Freshman year some junior in the locker room ripped my shirt and hit me. I hit him back and got his shirt.

        Went to the vice principal and he said I shouldn't have defended myself. He then proceeded to propose the question, "If someone shoots at you with a gun, what are you going to do?" Apparently, "Shoot him back before he gets me" is wrong. I should just run and hope I don't get shot. It was the first and only time I cursed a teacher/supervisor out. Told him that he was a fucking idiot. Then I just walked out and never got punished for it. Even if I did, a suspension would have been welcome. High school was a breeze for me requiring no studying and I enjoyed time off from it.
        Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Rageaholic View Post
          Please tell me the girl who instigated the fight got in trouble too. Because that's more than enough fuckery as it is. It's bad enough that you can get in trouble for hitting back in self defense, but you can't even block attacks. And you go to Juvie for it?! Juvie simply for being on the recieving end of some asshole bully. Ow!

          That logic hurts.
          I think the "logic" behind zero-tolerance policies in schools can be summed up thusly:

          "But...but COLUMBINE!!!!oneone!!eleventy!"

          The next time some kid spectacularly shoots up a school and gets all over the news (and there will be a next time), I shudder to think what the new zero-tolerance policies will make schools look like. Probably like glorified prisons.

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          • #6
            When I was in 5th grade (1991), I got in a fight with a bigger kid in the schoolyard (I won ) who had been picking on me for weeks. We got a talking to from the vice principal but that was it.

            In grade 10 (1996) I had some kid pull my shirt up and over my head. I got angry, turned around and just started swinging at him. We were near the classroom door and in the course of my swinging I forced us out into the hallway. The teacher sent him down to the office but NOT me. Why? He saw the whole thing happen and knew why I did what I did. I apologized for the disruption.

            My issue is what do these stupid zero tolerance policies teach kids? It's WRONG to tell someone it's NEVER ok to fight back.

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            • #7
              In 6th grade (1993) I was being picked on severely (borderline sexual harassment) by a gang of boys. One day mom had had enough and taught me how to throw a punch.

              Next time they came after me I bloodied the ringleader's nose. Guess who gets pulled into the office? Yup, moi. For fighting
              "Any state, any entity, any ideology which fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of Man...that state is obsolete."

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              • #8
                What's fun is when they "properly" apply Zero Tolerance.

                When I was in eighth grade (2000), I had a group of girls picking on me all the time in gym. Downside to my gym class was that right after that I had to cross the parking lot to get to my German class...the teachers wouldn't let me leave early. But I had to be dressed as quickly as possible.

                So get my stuff out of the big lockers (these were used for temporary storage) and go to put my gym stuff in my little locker (assigned at the beginning of the year for permanent storage). The little lockers are on tracks so they can be wheeled in and out. The girls start pushing it in anytime I try to put my stuff away, nearly causing the locker to slam on my hand. Eventually, I have enough and stuck my foot behind the wheel, figuring they won't be so dumb to roll it over my foot since it'll cause the lockers to fall on those on the other side.

                Yeah...should've realized better than that. They rolled it over my foot. I had to grab the stupid thing and balance it on my foot a moment to keep it from falling. And then kept it there so I can put my stuff away. Then quickly left the locker room to find a teacher, shoving the girls, who were now trying to block me in slightly, out of my way with my shoulders/elbows.

                Myself and two of the girls ended up in the principal's office. Who told us that we were eighth graders and she shouldn't have to be dealing with this stuff and if it continued she'd expel us all and let our parents sue each other.

                I don't think I have to detail my mom's reaction to that one.

                So...zero tolerance? Good idea in theory, bad in practice.
                I has a blog!

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                • #9
                  After non-stop comments of "whore" and "slut" from various jocks and preps, one day I lost my shit and all but physically assaulted one of the football players, had him up by a locker and threatened some pretty nasty stuff if he ever called me names again.

                  Of course, who got in trouble? Me. Sure, not smart to just go getting physical with people......but the words that were used "He's an athlete of this school with a promising future".....and what about me? You think someone who makes the school look "good" (hahahaha!) isn't likely to harrass someone?

                  I told of the teachers who stood in the doorways waiting for class to start as the kids filtered in, and how many times I had been called names and teachers pretended they didn't hear anything.

                  Oh well. Last I heard, he got scabies or something else funky from a stripper

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                  • #10
                    I drill into my kid's head that she will never, ever get into trouble with me for defending herself by any means needed.

                    I don't care how much trouble she gets into in school. I don't care how mad her teacher gets. Hell, I don't even care if she gets expelled. Getting kicked out of a school that wants her to roll over and endure abuse is not a negative in my book. I don't want her in that school, should it come to that.

                    Now, I made it equally clear that if I found out she was ever starting a fight or bullying anyone, that was a whole 'nother ball game. But at this point, thankfully, she is not that kind of kid.

                    But defending herself? I'll teach her how to throw a punch myself.

                    Zero tolerance policies are set up to ensure that nobody has to do any thinking. My mother used to tell me that we went to school to learn how to think. Maybe that was true at one time. It sure as fuck is not true now.

                    Get a teacher? Don't make me laugh. We all know the teachers are not allowed to do squat. Hell, some of my friends are ex teachers. They're ex teachers because they refused to put themselves in a situation where THEY were forced to roll over and take abuse. I have a friend who was hit in the head with a brick trying to break up a fight. She was told to let it go. It defies belief.

                    My husband beat up the school bully when he was in (I think) middle school or junior high or something like that. His mom was a teacher there. They went and got her because he'd been hauled into the office. Her only question was "Did he win?" I love my MIL.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Irving Patrick Freleigh View Post
                      I think the "logic" behind zero-tolerance policies in schools can be summed up thusly:

                      "But...but COLUMBINE!!!!oneone!!eleventy!"

                      The next time some kid spectacularly shoots up a school and gets all over the news (and there will be a next time), I shudder to think what the new zero-tolerance policies will make schools look like. Probably like glorified prisons.
                      I told someone I'm for concealed carry on campus and they freaked out because of all the shooting at college campuses, I pointed out that all of them have been ended by a gun. Either the shooter took their life, in at least once instance students with permits retrieved guns from their cars to defend themselves, or the police finally arrived. Giving people an option to defend themselves shouldn't be seen as a bad thing.

                      I will go as far to say that 9/11 can be seen as a product of zero tolerance when people are to afraid to defend themselves. Only did one group of people decide they weren't going to let the terrorists remain in control, and even then they were influenced by finding out about the fate of the other planes.

                      I am glad to hear parents saying that they don't agree with the polices and support their kids defending themselves even if it is against the rules because it definitely will help them not be victims later in life. Even if it seems work places are no adopting similar polices. Like Blas mentioned, of course the star people will never be held to the same standards and all of us beneath them will need to suffer or get in trouble.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by insertNameHere View Post

                        I will go as far to say that 9/11 can be seen as a product of zero tolerance when people are to afraid to defend themselves. Only did one group of people decide they weren't going to let the terrorists remain in control, and even then they were influenced by finding out about the fate of the other planes.

                        .
                        I think it was less a matter of people being afraid to defend themselves and more a matter of most plane hijackings don't end the way these ended. Hijackers make some demands, authorities get brought in, haggling ensues.

                        I would submit that in these instances, the people involved figured their best chance of survival would be to just cooperate and don't draw attention to themselves. Which was probably the best thing to do...until it became obvious that these were not normal hijackings. By the time the passengers in New York figured it out, it was too late. The passengers on the Pentagon plane knew...so they acted. I don't think anyone knowingly went quietly to their doom.

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                        • #13
                          Heh, my mom always told me, "Never start a fight. But if you get into one, you be sure to finish it."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Crazedclerkthe2nd View Post
                            My issue is what do these stupid zero tolerance policies teach kids? It's WRONG to tell someone it's NEVER ok to fight back.
                            unfortuneately after one exits school most work places have the same type of policies. can not defend oneself during robberies, CW "assults and batteries", customer assults and batteries, can not defend against sexual harassment, bullying, or micromanging managers/leads/DM/corp suits. you are taught to "just suck it up" while the person with the "power" (however you define that) gets to do as they please with impunity and suffering no consequences
                            I'm lost without a paddle and I'm headed up sh*t creek.

                            I got one foot on a banana peel and the other in the Twilight Zone.
                            The Fools - Life Sucks Then You Die

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kheldarson View Post

                              So...zero tolerance? Good idea in theory, bad in practice.
                              No, horrible idea in theory, even worse idea in practice.

                              In theory, it is a policy that removes all judgement.
                              Let's apply zero tolerance to something else other than schools, lets apply it to driving.
                              Zero tolerance for any person who runs a red light and causes injury, doesn't matter the cause. Someone who ran that light because of a freak mechanical failure (one that could not have been predicted and therefor prevented, just for argument) would receive the same punishment as someone who ran the light because they were busy texting.
                              While yes, I would agree the compensatory claim against the driver should be hte same (doubtless of intent, damage was caused), however under zero tolerance, the punitive claim would be the same too, and punitive damages are supposed to be a deterrint against the intent to cause harm.
                              So, under a zero tolerance system, either the person who intended to cause harm (or at least intended not to prevent harm, which may as well be the same thing when performing a potentially dangerous activity such as driving) will not get as much punishment as they deserve or the person who did not intend harm (or intended to prevent harm) will get more punishment than they deserve.

                              All zero tolerance policies are is an excuse for overpaid administrators to be lazy.
                              "I'm Gar and I'm proud" -slytovhand

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