France Bans Burqa

[Greenday]

You can just look at how certain areas are slowing being taken over. Parts of Texas, California, hell, we even have cities in NJ that now have a Mexican majority.

Shouldn't come as too big a surprise that people see this as a threat to our way of life.

[Rapscallion]

Seeing it as such isn't the same as it being one. The way of life of people in the US is a conglomeration of several generations of settlers landing and making lives for themselves, learning from each other and adapting.

Does it actually matter if in a generation or two there's a change in culture? It's going to happen anyway, but as soon as change happens one way, it happens another.

The alternative? Stagnation and eventual decay after a few decades of cultural incest.

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

Shouldn't come as too big a surprise that people see this as a threat to our way of life.

"Threat to our way of life"? Really?

I mean, unless your 'way of life' is to be a xenophobic bigot who fears anything done differently....

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

And what of those Muslims who are natural born French citizens and choose to wear the niqab or burqa? They're also being targeted by this bigoted legislation.

Frankly, it takes more than one generation to truly naturalize and the more deeply rooted a culture is the longer it will take.

However, I don't forsee any of those other things being banned, which makes it pretty clear that this legislation is being targeted directly at Muslims.

I don't think the target was in doubt. That said, we're back to their house, their rules. Also all of your other examples are stretching at best and silly at worst. As someone said, its not culturally acceptable in the western world to completely hide your face. A huge part of interpersonal communication is facial cues, and we're not comfortable those being intentionally removed from the equation. It is, in a way, dehumanizing as we lose a great deal of facial and body language. That makes us uncomfortable. Though conversely, you could perhaps argue that in hardline countries, it makes it easier to treat the person under the burqa as an object.

As for the security concern, France is clinging to it a bit too strongly I'm sure, but to be honest, is *is* a security concern in general. You could not walk into a store or a bank with a mask on regardless of your culture or reasoning. You're certainly not getting photo ID that way nor are you going through immigrating or getting on a plane or one of the hundreds of other situations where other people need to see your face.

In those situations it doesn't matter if the wearer is wearing it by choice or not. There is also no requirement in Islam to wear a burqa. It is purely a cultural thing. Islam demands only modesty to supposedly keep you from being lustfully harrassed. Which was probably a pretty valid concern back in the day.

On a side note, there are modesty requirements for men as well.

[Greenday]

"Threat to our way of life"? Really?

I mean, unless your 'way of life' is to be a xenophobic bigot who fears anything done differently....

^-.-^

Sounds like plenty of Americans.

Dey tuk r jerbs!!!!!!

[Hyena Dandy]

Unless you are moving to the United States, then you do. :/

I am confused. Example?

You can just look at how certain areas are slowing being taken over. Parts of Texas, California, hell, we even have cities in NJ that now have a Mexican majority.

Soooo? That's not a cultural invasion. That's people grouping together. Like how there are so many Irishes in Boston, or all the Somalis in Maine. They're not really taking over, they're just moving there.

Of course the Somalis in Maine are a different situation from the Mexicans in Texas, California, New Jersey, etc. In that the Mexicans (in my experience) are more willing to mingle. There may be Mexican neighborhoods, but you won't be harassed for not being Mexican if you happen to walk down the street in one. At least, in my experience.

[Greenday]

There may be Mexican neighborhoods, but you won't be harassed for not being Mexican if you happen to walk down the street in one. At least, in my experience.

How many Mexican neighborhoods have you travelled through?

You might not get murdered, but there are plenty of them where they will harass the shit out of you, especially if you are a female. One of my best friends has to deal with it all the time from being from the town next to mine that is now more than half Mexican. She's bilingual and Spanish is her other language so she's able to understand all the slurs, taunts, come ons they throw at her. I know a fair amount of Spanish so I generally get the gist of what they say. There's plenty of it.

[Hyena Dandy]

As I said, in my experience. I apologize if it wasn't clear enough my experience isn't necessarily broad.

That was, and again I apologize for not making it clear, tertiary to my point. Which was that really, there's nothing wrong with Mexicans or Irish or whatever moving to the area.

The arguments about Mexicans this century remarkably similar to arguments about the Irish at the turn of the last century.

I think that there's some confusion, however, as to what a cultural invasion is. Not knowing what the words we're debating actually mean will hinder debate.

As far as I can tell a cultural invasion is a concerted effort to change another country or area's culture. Demographic bombing, essentially. Mexicans moving to town are generally not moving there because they want to make the US into Mexico. For the most part, they're moving because it REALLY SUCKS to be in Mexico right now. Of course they'd want to move.

There's nothing malicious to it.

What it comes down to is, right now, its a lot better to be an American than to be a Mexican. And Mexican people deserve to be happy too. Its hard to be happy in Mexico right now, so they go where they can be happy.




That said, I've never understood people who have a problem with immigration. I consider national boundaries to be largely inconsequential, and I think in an ideal world, people could move freely from one area to another however they wanted. We are all equal under God, after all. And America IS a nation of immigrants. Hardly any of us can claim to have families that were here at the turn of the 18th century, so I don't get the problem. We hardly got here ourselves, compared to families in Britain or France. Except Native Americans, obviously. They've been here for quite a bit longer. But having traced my family tree, I can tell you not one of my relatives was in the US when it was founded.







What with all the tangents, I should summarize the point of my post, and try to make clear my last one as well, so there aren't any mix-ups.









Yes, Mexicans are coming to the US. There's nothing wrong with that. People deserve to be allowed to go wherever they can find the best life. I don't understand what the big deal is.

[Ginger Tea]

Yes, Mexicans are coming to the US. There's nothing wrong with that. People deserve to be allowed to go wherever they can find the best life. I don't understand what the big deal is.

We in the UK are recieving more Eastern Europeans these day's, if my work place is anything to go by, it started off as Polish, then Lithuainian's and I have stated before I have no beef that people are conversing in their native language instead of translating to and from English, I will take what gets the job done quicker.

As for the "they are taking our jobs" cry, most of the jobs "taken" wouldn't be applied for by alot of England's unemployed.

When I lived oop norf the council or the Ethnic groups themselves were located around the same area's, Pakistani in one Indian another Bangladeshi a third, I have no idea if this was the housing officers choosing to house people into 'ghetto's' or people saying "my family live here I would like to live nearby"

And arn't there alot of China town's and little Italy's or are they too established to be complained about?

[Hyena Dandy]

They just have way more enjoyable gangs to write about.

[Greenday]

And arn't there alot of China town's and little Italy's or are they too established to be complained about?

You don't see them spreading like the Mexican populations do.

My only problem with immigration is the entitlement a lot seem to feel. Even though there are many who don't give into the system, the same ones feel they deserve stuff back from the government. Free health care, free housing, etc. And that sad part is they get it! I have no problem with immigrants who come in through legal channels and earn a living.

But back on topic, I can only go on what I've heard from people more local to France. And from those in countries around France, I've heard that they are almost xenophobic in letting any other cultures come into their country and being prevalent in any way. Actually, in one of the games I play, three of the guys I chat with are in France. I'll have to ask for their take on it.

[Boozy]

But back on topic, I can only go on what I've heard from people more local to France. And from those in countries around France, I've heard that they are almost xenophobic in letting any other cultures come into their country and being prevalent in any way.

The French are notoriously protective of their culture and language. Much more so than Americans, even.

Fears from the US about losing their "culture" are absurd. American culture is a veritable juggernaut. It's taking over areas of the world in which the average person has never seen an American person in real life.

I don't see penniless and powerless migrant workers seriously changing US culture any time soon. Especially given that many of them like US culture and have immigrated to the US already partly "Americanized" in their way of thinking.

[daleduke17]

Yes, Mexicans are coming to the US. There's nothing wrong with that. People deserve to be allowed to go wherever they can find the best life. I don't understand what the big deal is.

I have no problem with Mexicans (or anyone else for that matter) coming to the US. They just need to use the "front door" aka LEGALLY come to the US.

[Andara Bledin]

You don't see them spreading like the Mexican populations do.

Not any more. They were the targets of the territorial bigots of yesteryear.

^-.-^

[blas87]

Technically, didn't Italians take over New Jersey?

Although nowhere near the same magnitude as Mexicans (and the legality issue), I still felt it was a valid argument.