History Repeats itself if you don't learn

[Greenday]

Much as I hate to borrow a cliche, long as you have TSA agents groping 6 year olds, the terrorists have won.

Well, feel free to surrender. They want us all dead. I'm still here along with the four soldiers in the room watching a movie with me. I'd say they are still losing.

Seeing as passangers did something on one of the flights of 9/11 itself to begin with and now everyone is acutely aware of the possibility. Seeing as its happened since. Yeah, people would flip and jump you. I would. Without question. Besides, considering US passangers flip the hell out if anyone even speaks a foreign language on a plane now, I'm pretty sure someone making a suspicious move would get mob beaten pretty quick. Especially if they were unfortunate enough to be brown.

Well, I don't trust people on a plane to save my ass. In my experiences, humans for the most part are, for lack of a better word, pussies. I can post numerous accounts of humans being pitiful wusses, seeing crimes take place, and doing nothing but watch or ignore it. Many more than cases of people stepping up and doing the right thing.

[Andara Bledin]

No, but most people don't stand in the middle of an open field when during thunderstorms, either.

You can stay inside and still have a better chance of being hit by lightning than being a victim in a terrorist attack on a plane.

The current system is a farce and an undisguised moneygrab by the guy who put the machines in place - nevermind that he holds part of the company that owns the company that manufactures the backscatter machines.

Well, I don't trust people on a plane to save my ass. In my experiences, humans for the most part are, for lack of a better word, pussies. I can post numerous accounts of humans being pitiful wusses, seeing crimes take place, and doing nothing but watch or ignore it. Many more than cases of people stepping up and doing the right thing.

Seeing as its happened since.

Oh, gee, what's that, Gravekeeper? You mean the people on that plane weren't the "pussies" that Greenday thinks everybody is for the most part?

First off, there is a vast difference between anything happening on the street (which is subject to bystander effect) and something happening inside a plane that you are also inside.

But that must be an abberation, right? It couldn't happen more than once, could it? And that answer to that is, of course it can. It was not a fluke - it has happened since.

^-.-^

[Nyoibo]

Well, I don't trust people on a plane to save my ass. In my experiences, humans for the most part are, for lack of a better word, pussies. I can post numerous accounts of humans being pitiful wusses, seeing crimes take place, and doing nothing but watch or ignore it. Many more than cases of people stepping up and doing the right thing.

On a plane they're not saving your ass, they couldn't give a shit about your ass, it's their ass that they're saveing.

[Eisa]

^Exactly.

And is the TSA still trying to convince children that it's just a game that they're getting felt up by security agents? Or have they finally stopped that when the outrage over the TSA basically teaching children to submit to pedophiles and not tell got too high?

Seriously, with that--if ANYONE ELSE touched you that extensively, you could get them arrested for sexual assault. They go too far.

There is a point where security is too much for show and too much taking away of rights to be worth it. If someone really wants to hijack a plane...they are going to find a way to hijack that plane. It's all reactionary mechanisms. Someone uses *this* way--then OMG let's make it so everyone has to *do x*! Someone does *this*...OMG let's make it like *this*.

[Greenday]

I'm curious what airports some of you have flown through yesterday, if any. In the span of two weeks, I went through five airports. 0 pat downs. 0 x-rays. My friend left her cell phone in a cab and security let her fly through the second time around when she explained her situation.

Even then, you EXPECT this stuff. It's not a surprise. So you have no argument that it's sexual assault or some such since you are fully willing to go through it. Otherwise, don't fly.

I'll complain when security gets excessive. I have yet to see anything deemable as excessive. When they start strip searching everyone, maybe I'll have a complaint then.

[Gravekeeper]

Whether or not you feel that the TSA has "gone too far" is one thing. But there's no question that some security measures need to be in place, and those measures will always mean that "the terrorists have won". They have inconvenienced us and cost us money. But the alternative - not doing enough - is also not a good idea.

I didn't advocate no security measures. Just pointing out the TSA has indeed gone too far, and the effectiveness of their measures is quite debtable. Many of the post 9/11 measures have ended up as punchlines to jokes. But they keep pressing them anyway by marketing them with fear. Fear which has reached absurd levels in the US and thus has accomplished exactly what the Terrorists(tm) set out to do.

Well, feel free to surrender. They want us all dead. I'm still here along with the four soldiers in the room watching a movie with me. I'd say they are still losing.

The objective of terrorism is fear. They wanted fear and they wanted something they could paint as a holy war against Islam to drudge up new recruits. They got both. As an added benefit, they've quagmired the US in two wars that have dragged its economy into the shitter and will likely take decades to recover from.

For a bunch of angry guys in caves, thats a resounding victory. Does anyone want to admit it? Probably not no. Is it frustrating as hell? Fuck yes. But that's sadly how it is. They won round 1, like it or not. Round 2 has been kind of a fuckfest thanks to Bush randomly pointing at Iraq when everything should have gone straight into Afghanistan.

Well, I don't trust people on a plane to save my ass. In my experiences, humans for the most part are, for lack of a better word, pussies. I can post numerous accounts of humans being pitiful wusses, seeing crimes take place, and doing nothing but watch or ignore it. Many more than cases of people stepping up and doing the right thing.

There's a big difference here though. If you witness a crime you don't have anything at stake in said crime and thus can be an asshole and do nothing. On a plane, your life is at stake and after 9/11 everyone knows what the consequences could be. Before 9/11, the Hollywood image of a hijacking was the plane gets hijacked and flown somewhere else. Now, the image is mentally connected with crashing and dying. Powerful motivator.

[Greenday]

The objective of terrorism is fear. They wanted fear and they wanted something they could paint as a holy war against Islam to drudge up new recruits. They got both. As an added benefit, they've quagmired the US in two wars that have dragged its economy into the shitter and will likely take decades to recover from.

For a bunch of angry guys in caves, thats a resounding victory. Does anyone want to admit it? Probably not no. Is it frustrating as hell? Fuck yes. But that's sadly how it is. They won round 1, like it or not. Round 2 has been kind of a fuckfest thanks to Bush randomly pointing at Iraq when everything should have gone straight into Afghanistan.

Our economy was going down the shitter regardless of the wars. The wars have nothing to do with the banks giving out insane loans to people who had no business taking these loans, people spending money they don't have, etc.

You clearly underestimate what these guys are capable of. They aren't just some neanderthals living in caves. These people are extremely technologically deprived yet they are taking what they have and making it work effectively. Round 1 they won? How is getting kicked out of power and out of your country as a group a win? I don't see Taliban airfields and army bases. I see American, Canadian, British, etc. bases.

[Gravekeeper]

Our economy was going down the shitter regardless of the wars. The wars have nothing to do with the banks giving out insane loans to people who had no business taking these loans, people spending money they don't have, etc.

Yes, but pissing away another 1.2 trillion or so on it didn't help much I'm sure.

You clearly underestimate what these guys are capable of.

Sorry that statement makes no sense seeing as I just outlined exactly what they were capable of and you just effectively informed me I overestimated. You can't switch it over in the very next paragraph. -.-

They aren't just some neanderthals living in caves.

I said they were angry. Not neanderthals.

Round 1 they won?

Yes. Don't make me point at Ground Zero again, I don't particularly like having to bring it up, but it is most assuredly a win.

How is getting kicked out of power and out of your country as a group a win? I don't see Taliban airfields and army bases. I see American, Canadian, British, etc. bases.

We've been there over 9 years and the region is certainly not stable yet, the Taliban certainly haven't been kicked out completely ( else we wouldn't have a problem ) and the guy in charge is kind of an dick whose not really helping. Pakistan is farking around in the background and really the entire thing will likely collapse the moment we leave. While they celebrate having driven out the foreigners I'm sure.

We're going to be there forever and its never going to be fixed. All we can do is build a house of cards around it then pray we don't leave on a windy day.

[Greenday]

Sorry that statement makes no sense seeing as I just outlined exactly what they were capable of and you just effectively informed me I overestimated. You can't switch it over in the very next paragraph. -.-

I said they were angry. Not neanderthals.

Yes. Don't make me point at Ground Zero again, I don't particularly like having to bring it up, but it is most assuredly a win.

We've been there over 9 years and the region is certainly not stable yet, the Taliban certainly haven't been kicked out completely ( else we wouldn't have a problem ) and the guy in charge is kind of an dick whose not really helping. Pakistan is farking around in the background and really the entire thing will likely collapse the moment we leave. While they celebrate having driven out the foreigners I'm sure.

We're going to be there forever and its never going to be fixed. All we can do is build a house of cards around it then pray we don't leave on a windy day.

Funny, I went through my posts and didn't see where I said you overestimated anything about the terrorists.

You know who hangs out and hides in caves? Neanderthals. You know who doesn't? The terrorists. They have homes they can go to. If the terrorists only lived in caves, this shit would be easy. Instead, we can't just see the difference between some average Joe and terrorists.

Wait, how do you go from we lost Fight #1 because of 9/11 to we lost Fight #2 Iraq? What about everything in between?

Things might not be the most stable, but before things just picked up in the past month or so, things were good. Afghanistan has a good government. They are building up their own defense forces. Women are starting to gain rights. God forbid we didn't turn this place around over night. This isn't some easy fix. It'll take longer than a couple years.

[Andara Bledin]

Funny, I went through my posts and didn't see where I said you overestimated anything about the terrorists.

First you say he underestimated, then you say they didn't take round 1 and haven't yet lost round 2. Pick one side or the other - you can't have both and be taken seriously.

^-.-^

[Greenday]

First you say he underestimated, then you say they didn't take round 1 and haven't yet lost round 2. Pick one side or the other - you can't have both and be taken seriously.

^-.-^

Round 1 = Us vs. Taliban/Al Qaeda (Afghanistan) - We kicked them out of power of their own country. They still don't have that power. I'd say that's us winning. Not sure what saying you can't underestimate them has to do with this. Can someone actually make an argument that shows why one is contrary to the other? You can get your ass kicked while still being dangerous.

Round 2 = Us vs. Al Qaeda/Saddam (Iraq) - Saddam is out of power. Al Qaeda isn't in power. They now have their own government not run by terrorists/radicals.

Did we win? No. But we are winning.

[Evandril]

Round 1 = Us vs. Taliban/Al Qaeda (Afghanistan) - We kicked them out of power of their own country. They still don't have that power. I'd say that's us winning. Not sure what saying you can't underestimate them has to do with this. Can someone actually make an argument that shows why one is contrary to the other? You can get your ass kicked while still being dangerous.

Round 2 = Us vs. Al Qaeda/Saddam (Iraq) - Saddam is out of power. Al Qaeda isn't in power. They now have their own government not run by terrorists/radicals.

Did we win? No. But we are winning.

I think this is where the confusion lies...

Round 1 = Sneak attack by the taliban on the US. "win" to them, as they managed most of their objectives, missing only one, and we were blind-sided enough not to be able to respond in time

Round 2 = Our retaliation, which instead of being purely in Afghanistan, was 'watered down' by hitting Iraq as well. (Where there has not been proven to be a solid al qeada connection, that I have heard...if I am incorrect, please let me know)

That is at least how others were giving the 'rounds', hence the confusion.

[Gravekeeper]

I think this is where the confusion lies...

Yes, exactly.

You know who hangs out and hides in caves? Neanderthals. You know who doesn't? The terrorists.

Since you're insisting on taking an offhand comment so seriously, I should point out Neanderthals actually did build huts and what not. They would only be in a cave for the same reason we would be: Convienience. They were also likely just as intelligent as we were and were actually more advanced than we were for thousands of years. =p

They have homes they can go to. If the terrorists only lived in caves, this shit would be easy. Instead, we can't just see the difference between some average Joe and terrorists.

and where did Pakistan find their last headquarters? Oh right, a 156 room cave network along the border. Yes, they're intertwined with the populace and they have supporters amongst them, but its certainly not HQ. But again, you're off on your own tangent bringing up points in an argument I'm not even making. All I did was make an offhand remark referring to them as angry dudes in caves.

Things might not be the most stable, but before things just picked up in the past month or so, things were good. Afghanistan has a good government. They are building up their own defense forces. Women are starting to gain rights. God forbid we didn't turn this place around over night. This isn't some easy fix. It'll take longer than a couple years.

Its pretty much been a suckfest for all of 2011 so far. Karzai is a corrupt dickhead for the most part. Women have gained some rights yes, but they're pretty much stuck at the cultural barrier now. It'll be decades before what they even have now is accepted and thats only if it doesn't revert after we leave. No, its not an easy fix, it will take decades to fix. Decades we can't provide.

Round 1 = Us vs. Taliban/Al Qaeda (Afghanistan) - We kicked them out of power of their own country.

That's Round 2. Round 1 they caused a devestating terrorist attack, terrorfied a country, changed your entire culture, fucked up your political landscape, turned neighbour against neighbour and even now almost a decade later serve as a convinient boogie man for infringing on your rights. Point - Terrorists.

As for Round 2: Yeah we kicked the Taliban out of power, but they embroiled us in near a decade of shit, just waiting for the moment we leave as we can't keep this up forever. The social, economic and military burden they put on us is incredible and they did it intially with a handful of people from a group that intially was only around 1000 strong tops. Before we gave em not one but *two* wars to serve as recruitment tools.

Round 2 = Us vs. Al Qaeda/Saddam (Iraq) - Saddam is out of power. Al Qaeda isn't in power. They now have their own government not run by terrorists/radicals.

Psst, Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq until you removed Saddam then walked in and presented a much more conviently located target/recruitment ad then having to go all the way to the US. Saddam was actually keeping them out. There was absolutely no good reason to go into Iraq. You know it, I know it. Everyone knows it. Anyone who thinks otherwise at this point in time is a complete and total idiot.

The whole reason they're there now is because you're there now.

[insertNameHere]

I forget what it cost to pull of 9/11 but I believe the cost of planning and flying lessons and even waiting is less than the cost of some of the SINGLE bombs we drop that cost several million dollars that might do some damage.... with limited funds they completely screwed our economic structure and destroyed landmarks with what I would call minimal effort.

Spending $1 to get someone to spend $1000000 to retaliate is a sadly a win, along with when that first dollar also destroyed other assets.

[protege]

I with limited funds they completely screwed our economic structure and destroyed landmarks with what I would call minimal effort.

That's *exactly* it. From a military standpoint, it was a perfect operation. Think about it--the perpetrators were killed, and we couldn't exactly retaliate until later. There was so much misinformation around at the time--because of widespread fear and pandemonium--which is *exactly* what they wanted. Also not only did a couple of landmarks--powers of US economic and military might--suffer their wrath, but an estimated 3,000-plus of our citizens, along with our economy were, for the lack of a better word, fucked. Didn't something similar happen about 60 years prior?