The "Green" movement

[ebonyknight]

I was wondering what everyone thought about the "green" movement.

Now that being environmentally friendly is the new fad, do people really buy into what everyone tells them about this movement?

For example, a poster was asking what was so special about the hybrid cars, when they only marginally get better gas mileage? The hybrids actually have two engines and effectively doubles the weight of the car. This kills the gas mileage. Not to mention they cost significantly more than a comparable car (and a new Toyota price hike is on the way).

Paper vs. plastic. It is conventional wisdom that plastic bags are 'evil' and that people should convert over to paper or use their own tote bags. Plastic bags are actually MORE environmentally friendly than paper. Why, to recycle paper bags, more trees must be cut down, because the recycling process destroys some of the paper and it has to be replaced. Then there is the cost in resources for cutting down the trees in gas and energy for reprocessing.

Plastic bags, you simply remelt for a fraction of the energy and make new ones. The bad rep that plastic gets is that they are light and therefore blow on the wind easily. They are a littering nuisance. But instead of addressing the problem, local governments try to cash in on the "green" movement, by banning them, instead of enforcing littering laws.

There are a lot of examples of "green" alternatives costing more, making no sense, or actually doing more damage. "Green" bleach, anyone????

So I was wondering how many people believe that the green movement is one that is good for the environment and not just another fad that people try to cash in on, politically or financially.

[the_std]

I'm kind of torn on this topic.

On one hand, yes. People are way too willing to jump on the bandwagon and believe all kinds of rhetoric, especially anything touted as "green" being good for the environment. This is just another example of sheeples and their never-ending presence in our society. People should be more careful when choosing products or services that have the "green" label on them, but, then again, I should be married to Ewan McGregor.

On the other hand, it makes me happy to see the ball start rolling. Environmentalism and the real green movement are starting to get a whole lot more recognition than they did in the past and real progress towards environmentally-friendly solutions will be easier and more available. However, with any well-meaning cause, there are always going to be hangers-on trying to make a buck.

I really don't know where to side, here.

[Slytovhand]

I'll bite..

I'm not so divided as STD... yep - there's a bandwagon which sprouts a lot of crap. Fine... let them! It's better to have that wagon moving forward, that no wagon at all. Let's get stuff happening before we start differentiating between the real stuff and the absolute crap - we can work that out later.

But.. as far as 'information' is concerned... it annoys the crap out of me that there is a stack of misinformation around that gets turned out every so often! Nothing wrong with a hybird car (other than they usually look crap... and I presume that's so very few ppl will buy them, but make the manufacturers 'look' enviro-friendly. I mean... why not make a gybird car that actaully looks good that ppl will want to buy??). But if you are going to talk about your car, at least have your facts straight...

Similar with all this 'global warming' crap. Let's take a look at planet Earth over the last 6 billion years.... Hell - go back only a few thousand years... I'm not saying that what humans are doing pollution-wise is ok... nor denying that we are having an obvious detrimental impact... but at least have that placed on a historical backdrop. Hey... it wasn't that long ago (in universal time) that this whole planet was a pile of toxic gasses, volcanoes and death....

[rahmota]

Well I'm all in favor of the "green" movement as a farmer keeping the earth and its resources available for my grand children in a clean and usable and enjoyable state is highly important. This is why any action, even if it is goofy, misguided or downright strange, that trys to improve or keep thigs from getting worse is better than sticking our collective heads in the sand about what affect we have on our own world.

I personally follow the mantra of REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE.

Reduce the usage of non-renewable resources. Reduce my carbon and other pollution footprint by responsibly using chemicals and other materials.

Reuse items as much as possible. An old t shirt turns into a grease rag. A broken dresser is turned into scrap wood for patching items or other materials. An old door can be a table for a yard sale etc... Among all sort of other smaller things.

Recycle. aluminum foil and cans, plastics, glass bottles, paper products, scrap metal (my personal favorite as people pay me to haul this stuff away from them and then i get paid to sell the stuff to the scrap yard.)

Nothing wrong with a hybird car (other than they usually look crap... and I presume that's so very few ppl will buy them, but make the manufacturers 'look' enviro-friendly. I mean... why not make a hybird car that actaully looks good that ppl will want to buy??).

personally i like the looks of the Prius. And some of the other mild hybrids dont look any different than their normal counterparts. Personally I'm biased towards biofuel vehicles but hey that means a bonsu for farmers and a renewable resource so thats all good.

I'm rather on the side of believing in global warming or rather human induced climate change. But thats for another thread totally as to if it is real or not.

[tropicsgoddess]

It's good and all to want to make a difference and help the environment, but sometimes I can't help but think the whole green movement is just going to be a fad. Everywhere you turn, it's all about driving hybrids, and you even see the little Lexus crossover SUVs that's supposed to be the rich man's hybrid? Seriously.

[AFPheonix]

Heh. To be a total downer, the sheer cost of gasoline is pretty much going to reduce the average consumer's carbon footprint in a hurry.

[Slytovhand]

personally i like the looks of the Prius. And some of the other mild hybrids dont look any different than their normal counterparts. Personally I'm biased towards biofuel vehicles but hey that means a bonsu for farmers and a renewable resource so thats all good.

I'm rather on the side of believing in global warming or rather human induced climate change. But thats for another thread totally as to if it is real or not.

Ahh... down this a-way, the typical hybrid is the Prius, and I haven't noticed many/or any others. And they are aimed at the enviro-conscious person. I was more pointing out that to make a solid difference, it would be good to have those hybrids look more like the standard car that you'd see all over the place, rather than more of a stand-out. Over here, I'd be saying - have a Camry, Commodore, Falcon etc hybrid. And how about a Monaro hybrid (other than the fact they don't really compare at high end... yet).

yeah - Biofuel is good Up in Far North Queensland,where there's stacks of sugarcane, they've been on Ethanol for years.

Ah... slowly but surely.....


yeah - the 'Global Warming' argument could be interesting... but having a stack of facts and figures and statistics would make a lot of difference to that thread (and I sure as hell don't feel like going looking.... I'll just stick to what I said above ) Not to say that we shouldn't take steps anyways... after all - pros and cons to either side? One means global destruction in a more complacent society, the other means massive economic and cultural changes for... a healthier living - that seems fair to me

[BlaqueKatt]

yeah - the 'Global Warming' argument could be interesting... but having a stack of facts and figures and statistics would make a lot of difference to that thread (and I sure as hell don't feel like going looking.... I'll just stick to what I said above )

I can give you a link to a google video documentary from the BBC on it being bad science

[Difdi]

Now that being environmentally friendly is the new fad, do people really buy into that everyone tells them about this movement?

I prefer plastic to paper for that exact reason.

I prefer alternative and renewable fuels because I personally favor letting the people of the middle-east kill each other. If we, in North America, have zero vested interest in the petroleum supply, why should we care if a bunch of medievalist idiots kill each other endlessly?

I favor zero emissions power and fuel generation because I like clean air, clean water, and healthy environments.

I remember reading somewhere (though I won't swear to the accuracy of it) that all the ozone depletion of 50 years of CFCs amounts to less ozone than the Earth naturally produces in a single year.

I believe in global warming. But I also acknowledge that the Earth is still recovering from an extreme cooling period, due to a volcanic eruption centuries ago, and has not reached normal temperatures yet. Prior to the extreme cooling period was a time of plenty (starving people don't build cathedrals), and we're not back to it yet.

There's always doomsayers, but until the climatological computer models that predict disaster take into account the effects of water vapor (dozens of times more effect on warming than CO2), among countless other factors the models currently ignore, I'll take their predictions with an entire salt mine. Flawed science produces flawed results, and should be ridiculed as it properly deserves. Even if CO2 were as effective at global warming as the models currently in use indicate -- Anyone who actually compares charts of temperatures with charts of CO2 levels in the atmosphere will plainly see, that increases in CO2 follow rises in temperature; They don't cause it.

So no, I don't have a lot of tolerance for people panicking over global warming and the entire Green agenda. And you'd better believe me, even if CFCs were killing the ozone layer, I'd rather have a halon extinguisher system than dry chemical when my house is on fire.

[Boozy]

As of mid-2007, there is no respected scientific body of national or international standing that does not agree with near certainty that human activity affects climate change. There are disagreements as to the extent to which we are inducing global warming, but it is generally agreed that changes need to be made if we want to continue to live the lifestyles to which we've become accustomed.

The question is: What kind of changes? Things generally thought to be beneficial, like hybrid cars and paper bags, can actually be worse than their 20th century alternatives. And even if everyone does know exactly what to buy and what to do, its possible that we have passed the point where what we buy at the grocery store even matters.

If every single household in North America switched to energy-saver lightbulbs...the positive effect over the course of a year is negated by a single coal power plant in a single week.

China is building new coal plants at the rate of one a week.

Climate change is no longer a consumer issue. Its a global issue that will require every single country's commitment to the Kyoto Protocol (which did not go far enough). It requires us to completely change the way we live and the way we think about our planet and its resources.

A good start, at least in capitalist countries such as ours, is carbon tax credits. Its working in British Columbia here in Canada, and I am participating in a campaign to institute them nation-wide.

I still do little things like use recycled toilet paper. I may not be making a huge difference, but I try to live my life in such a way that I am honouring the planet that feeds and shelters me.

[ebonyknight]

I still do little things like use recycled toilet paper. I may not be making a huge difference, but I try to live my life in such a way that I am honouring the planet that feeds and shelters me.

I don't use it at all. I use a bidet.

Sorry, too much information.

[Seshat]

I've been living 'green' for years: mostly because I'm a canary.

No, not literally. (Wouldn't that be funny, though? Little canary on a keyboard.)

In coalmines, in the industrial revolution era, canaries were used to detect 'coal gas' - probably carbon monoxide. I forget. The canary would die before the miners did, and the miners would have a chance to get out.

Twenty-odd years ago, I started getting sick. Its onset was so gradual I didn't notice, I just thought that the increasing difficulty I had with life was the result of moving out of home, trying to get a degree, all that sort of thing. I wasn't doing as well as my friends, but I thought it was my fault - that I was somehow crap at this 'living' thing.

Then, a year into my first job, I collapsed. Boom. Couldn't wake up most of the day, couldn't do much even when I was awake.

A battery of tests later, and I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome (aka myalgic encephelomyelitis, aka chronic fatigue immune deficiency syndrome) and multiple chemical sensitivity.

Multiple chemical sensitivity essentially means that the toxins of modern life have built up to such a degree that your body can't process them at the rate you're absorbing them.

After the allergen test, my arms looked like a hive of bees had stung them. I was (temporarily) allergic to even ridiculous things like lettuce. How the hell does someone get allergic to lettuce?

It took fifteen years of carefully 'green' living to get my liver function tests to come back clear. I'm still sensitive to a lot of stuff, but no longer to the extent that I was. But if I stop living 'green', I'll get sick again.

For me, living 'green' means a host of things:
* Never using dry-cleaning chemicals - I just don't buy dry-clean only clothes.
* Always washing new clothes before wearing them.
* Always washing fruit and veggies.
* Never having uncovered chipboard: it always has to be painted with a low-volatiles paint or otherwise covered.
* Always having either old paint, or low-volatiles paint.
* Never buying new cars. 'new-car smell' is toxic gases.
* Never having new carpets. Again, the smell is toxic gas.
* No perfumes, no stinky deodorants, no air fresheners. Instead, I use a 'nilodor' spray which removes (rather than covers) the odour, keep things clean, open windows and doors to remove indoor gasses, and use vinegar and carb soda as odour neutralisers.
* Always cleaning with mild or natural cleansers. A mild dish soap that I can tolerate is a primary cleaning tool. So are vinegar, carb soda and salt.
* Extreme care when purchasing any more serious cleanser.
* Keeping a small carbon-filter breathing mask in my handbag. Or on my face. Depends on what I smell and how my body feels.
* Never eating food that's been around heated plastic. (Ceramics or glass in the microwave.)

Hell. Lots of other stuff. But you get the idea. On top of that, we do some other 'green' stuff. We have cloth bags. We recycle. We grow some of our own food. We use low-wattage lights and appliances, low-water washing machine and dishwasher, and except for the food plants, our garden never gets watered. Plants which don't survive get replaced by hardier ones (or food plants). We compost.

We travel on foot (except for me) or by electric scooter (me) within our reasonable range. The nearby train extends our range. We have a car, which we keep tuned and in repair. When we replace it, it'll be with a secondhand car which takes biodiesel (and can take the scooter). There's a place near us which makes biodiesel.

We reuse stuff, like Rahmota does. We make our own stuff a lot. There's a great construction-recycling place not far from us that we buy things from sometimes. And old stuff has already done most of its offgassing.
We mend rather than replace wherever possible.

When we can afford to, we'll buy some sort of generator for the house. Solar or wind or something - we'll research it when we're closer to being able to afford it.

We've figured out that with one more cooling fan and better insulation, we can go through summer without air conditioning at all: so those are on the shopping list.

We are going to need better heating, though: even with insulation. So we're saving, and we'll research what the lowest impact available heating is.

We'll eventually replace the siding (which is peeling and breaking off), and we'll do that with something high-insulating, low-environmental-impact, and likely to last the house' lifetime.

We're making cat-proof fencing, to keep our kitty confined to our yard and unable to go native-bird hunting - well, unable to go hunting elsewhere, anyway.

Hm. That's about it.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

Hi Seshat, I also suffer from chemical sensitivities. I used to care for a woman who was nearly incapacitated by it in Santa Fe.

I can still go places where there are chemicals if I have to, but I get headaches and such. My immune system is tuned so fine that I have to eat a lot of foods full of probitics to keep it from attacking itself.

Are you familiar with the book Better Basics For The Home by Annie Berthold-Bond? This book really improved the quality of my life when I discovered it.

[Difdi]

As of mid-2007, there is no respected scientific body of national or international standing that does not agree with near certainty that human activity affects climate change. There are disagreements as to the extent to which we are inducing global warming, but it is generally agreed that changes need to be made if we want to continue to live the lifestyles to which we've become accustomed.

The problem is that while human activity does affect climate change, it's just as accurate to say that firing one bullet into a nuclear detonation increases the level of destruction. Until the exact effects of human activity can be quantified (and not one of those scientific bodies you mention has done so), then what actions must be taken, if any, cannot be known. The concept of "Do something! Do Anything! Do the WRONG thing! But do SOMETHING!" usually causes more harm than doing nothing.

Climate change is no longer a consumer issue. Its a global issue that will require every single country's commitment to the Kyoto Protocol (which did not go far enough). It requires us to completely change the way we live and the way we think about our planet and its resources.

A good start, at least in capitalist countries such as ours, is carbon tax credits. Its working in British Columbia here in Canada, and I am participating in a campaign to institute them nation-wide.

The Kyoto Protocol is flawed. Scientists have yet to even identify the impact of all the various factors in the atmosphere that affect global warming. The Protocol seeks to regulate emissions without anyone knowing what impact those emissions have. For example: Did you know that if you compare a graph of temperature changes with a graph of CO2 levels in the atmosphere, rising CO2 levels are apparently caused by global warming, not the other way around? Another example: Did you know that the computer models currently in use that make such dire predictions about rising CO2 levels, do not account for the effects of water vapor? Water vapor in the atmosphere is some 33 times more impacting on planetary albedo than CO2 is, and yet, all these predictions of doom stem from models that deliberately pretend that no water exists in the atmosphere, due to the fact that the full effects of clouds are not yet understood, and therefore cannot be modeled.

Additionally, there is the problem of what normal temperatures actually are. The Earth is currently recovering from an abnormally cold period, caused by sunlight being blocked by a massive volcanic eruption several centuries ago. The Earth has not yet reached the global climate that it had before the eruption. At the present rate of temperature increase, that won't happen for a few more decades. This period of global warming we're in is not necessarily artificial. Human actions may well be accelerating the process, but in this case, such accelerated warming is beneficial. The time before the cooling period caused by the eruption (a cooling period so severe it's referred to as the Little Ice Age) was a time of plenty; Longer growing seasons, and more arable land. With human populations growing as fast as they are, an increasing ability to grow food seems like a good thing.

I still do little things like use recycled toilet paper. I may not be making a huge difference, but I try to live my life in such a way that I am honouring the planet that feeds and shelters me.

I do hope you mean "toilet paper made from recycled fibers" rather than "recycled toilet paper". That might be just a bit messy...

[Boozy]

This period of global warming we're in is not necessarily artificial. Human actions may well be accelerating the process, but in this case, such accelerated warming is beneficial. The time before the cooling period caused by the eruption (a cooling period so severe it's referred to as the Little Ice Age) was a time of plenty; Longer growing seasons, and more arable land. With human populations growing as fast as they are, an increasing ability to grow food seems like a good thing.

May I ask where you are getting your information from? I'd be interested in reading more about it.

Secondly, there is no indication that the current period of climate change, whether caused by humans or not, will be beneficial to agriculture. The hydroponic cycle is being seriously disrupted. Australia and large parts of the US are running out of water. Drought and floods have caused some catastrophic world-wide crop failures already.