The "Green" movement

[Difdi]

May I ask where you are getting your information from? I'd be interested in reading more about it.

A good website for this is Ponder the Maunder, which is where I got most of my information on the subject. It's a lot more compelling than anything else I've been able to find, on any side of the issue.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ponderthemaunder/index.html

Secondly, there is no indication that the current period of climate change, whether caused by humans or not, will be beneficial to agriculture. The hydroponic cycle is being seriously disrupted. Australia and large parts of the US are running out of water. Drought and floods have caused some catastrophic world-wide crop failures already.

When the Little Ice Age began, agriculture adapted. There was massive famine, but it wasn't the end of all life, human or otherwise. The Earth is cooler now than it was in 1100 AD. Agriculture needs to adapt to changing conditions. Refusing to adapt, and claiming it will lead to massive famine and disaster is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you build on a flood plain, you expect floods. If you build in a region where wildfires are a natural part of the life cycle, then expect your house to burn down. If you live in a place prone to hurricanes, then your roof blowing off isn't abnormal. Building your house atop an ancient lava field means you will find out what molten rock looks like the next time the volcano erupts. When climates change, you move your farms. Siberia was once a temperate forest. The Sahara desert was once a swamp. Demanding that nature do things your way, and making no plans to adapt with changes, is foolish at best, and more likely to be suicide.

[Boozy]

When the Little Ice Age began, agriculture adapted. There was massive famine, but it wasn't the end of all life, human or otherwise.

I don't know anyone who's saying that global warming will be the end of all human life. Of course whatever people survive droughts and famine will eventually adapt.

But personally, I'd like the avoid the starvation of millions of people altogether.

A good website for this is Ponder the Maunder, which is where I got most of my information on the subject. It's a lot more compelling than anything else I've been able to find, on any side of the issue.

That website is run by a 16 year-old. Most of the data is her own.

[Seshat]

Hi Seshat, I also suffer from chemical sensitivities.
<snip>
Are you familiar with the book Better Basics For The Home by Annie Berthold-Bond? This book really improved the quality of my life when I discovered it.

I'm not familiar with that specific one, but I have a small collection of cleaning tools, methods, products and techniques books that rely on things like lemon juice, cornflour, vinegar and carb soda; and recipes for cleaning mixes made of similarly benign ingredients. If it's one of those, I probably have most of the tips already.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

I'm not familiar with that specific one, but I have a small collection of cleaning tools, methods, products and techniques books that rely on things like lemon juice, cornflour, vinegar and carb soda; and recipes for cleaning mixes made of similarly benign ingredients. If it's one of those, I probably have most of the tips already.

Yes, I figured you did. BBFTH is simply the most complete book I have ever found---she's got instructions on gardening, pets, natural pest control, whole body care recipes including various types of shampoos, recipes for natural masonry products (grout, mudset, mortar), milk paints, dyes and pigments, natural wood sealants and varnishes, and lots, lots more stuff.

[Difdi]

That website is run by a 16 year-old. Most of the data is her own.

Most of the data is not her own. Check out where she got the graphs from. Besides, what does her age have to do with being right or wrong? You don't help your argument by attacking the author, rather than the argument.

[ebonyknight]

Do people really believe that we can avoid Gore's "tipping point", by going Green? Do we really want to destroy our way of life on the minute chance that we can save the Planet all by ourselves?

There can be no better indicator that the Green movement is going to destroy us, than oil. Despite the fact that we import a lot of oil and that gas prices are rising higher and higher, the "green" movement refuses to let us tap our own vast resources. They hider the oil companies with lawsuits. Last year in Alaska this type of thing cost exxon mobil years of planning to do exploration in Alaska. Years of coordination (traveling over the ice, marshaling resources, etc) were ruined in a few days when the "movement" put an injunction on exxon mobil.

While we are mired in higher gas and oil prices, the rest of the world is literally laughing at us while they drill like mad. Norway, how much of a more liberal country can you get, yet they drill for oil like there is no tomorrow. Despite the fact that the supply is shrinking and demand is escalating, we still can't drill because we'll "hurt the environment". Hello, China is doing more to hurt then environment in the past two years than we have ever done, combined!

People say that this will push us to develop alternatives. Probably, but at what cost? While the "movement" continues to get it's way, what are they going to say when they go home from a rally and the refrigerator is empty, because they can't afford 6 dollar a gallon milk and 5 dollar a loaf bread?

[ebonyknight]

Good God man!

I just got spam from Hanes underwear that I can get Organic underwear from them. It's good for the environment!!! 100% cotton!

This is how brain dead we've become.

[the_std]

... I don't understand how 100% cotton underwear makes us braindead. Cotton is biodegradable, unlike polyester or spandex. Calling it "organic" is a bit of a stretch, but it's true. Cotton is a natural product.

[Boozy]

Organic cotton is a wonderful option for people with chemical sensitivities (like our own Seshat and TPG). Regular cotton is not just grown with pesticides; it is also subjected to numerous chemical baths before reaching the consumer.

Growing cotton on an industrial scale is also very hard on the environment - more so than almost any other crop. It requires a full one-quarter of all pesticides used in worldwide industrial cash crop farming. The earth was never meant to support the amount of cotton we produce.

[ebonyknight]

... I don't understand how 100% cotton underwear makes us braindead. Cotton is biodegradable, unlike polyester or spandex. Calling it "organic" is a bit of a stretch, but it's true. Cotton is a natural product.

From the first post in the thread.

There are a lot of examples of "green" alternatives costing more, making no sense, or actually doing more damage. "Green" bleach, anyone????

So I was wondering how many people believe that the green movement is one that is good for the environment and not just another fad that people try to cash in on, politically or financially.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

Organic cotton is a wonderful option for people with chemical sensitivities (like our own Seshat and TPG). Regular cotton is not just grown with pesticides; it is also subjected to numerous chemical baths before reaching the consumer.

Growing cotton on an industrial scale is also very hard on the environment - more so than almost any other crop. It requires a full one-quarter of all pesticides used in worldwide industrial cash crop farming. The earth was never meant to support the amount of cotton we produce.

Yes, I love buying organic cotton when I can afford it. When I buy new clothes or fabric for making clothes I have to soak it in baking soda solution for a day and then wash it twice to get all the chemicals out to the point I can wear it. Organic cotton I usually only have to run through the washer once and I can wear it, which is really nice.

I did not know that about cotton, but I do now!

[AFPheonix]

The problem with the few reserves we have left here in our country is that they wouldn't last us more than a decade at best. What would be the point of tearing up a pristine area just so someone can drive to the corner store a few more times?

There could be some serious money to be made in new technology that would be far more sustainable than what we have now and be far less politically charged than petroleum. Even if it doesn't stop global warming, I think it's worth it simply for new wealth creation and to get our fingers out of an area that is desperately due for a Reformation.

As for the oil prices currently, while some of it is due to supply, a good chunk is due to speculators. This is part of the reason why OPEC hasn't started supplying more than it has (well that and the record revenue). If they oversupply and the price bubble bursts, then they're out of some serious cash.

[rahmota]

Most of the data is not her own. Check out where she got the graphs from. Besides, what does her age have to do with being right or wrong? You don't help your argument by attacking the author, rather than the argument.

Probably just the thought that you would trust the work/collection of a 16 year old over that of hundreds of respect professional scientists who do feel that human impact on global climate change is a real and valid substantially detrimental thing. I dunno. Thats why I would question it. I"ve looked at the data collected by the NOAA, AG departments, various other world meteorological agencies and the consensus seems to be that most scientists are not willing to say a difinitive yes or now but that generally there is no question that humans are and have impacted out environment and accelerated some bad things. The question is to what degree have we done so and how far will it go if we do or dont stop.

Growing cotton on an industrial scale is also very hard on the environment - more so than almost any other crop. It requires a full one-quarter of all pesticides used in worldwide industrial cash crop farming. The earth was never meant to support the amount of cotton we produce.

Exactly. Not to mention the fertilizers, nitraes, fuel for the equipment which is pretty much specialized for just cotton picking and all the other support costs involved.

This is also another reason why we should develop other alternatives to cotton such as Hemp or other organic fibers. I have a hemp shirt and it is very comfortable and durable. Unfortunately hemp is a victim of the war on drugs.


AFP is pretty much right about why we shouldnt open the oil reserves up. Tearing up an already endangered region just to fuel our greed for a few more years of stupid wasteful driving is not only pointless it just drives home the degree of selfish and lazy attitude our society has become. Instead of walking to the local market people will drive. I've seen people drive from one side of the shopping center to the other rather than walk a couple hundred feet. I'll park the vehicle in a central location and everybody walks to everywhere as that vehicle is not moving again until it is time to go home.

Improving biofuel technologies is one major way we can use the existing infrastructure. Hydrogen fuel systems would require a major investment in infrastructure which oil companies and car companies are not goign to be willingly doing.

[Difdi]

Probably just the thought that you would trust the work/collection of a 16 year old over that of hundreds of respect professional scientists who do feel that human impact on global climate change is a real and valid substantially detrimental thing. I dunno. Thats why I would question it. I"ve looked at the data collected by the NOAA, AG departments, various other world meteorological agencies and the consensus seems to be that most scientists are not willing to say a difinitive yes or now but that generally there is no question that humans are and have impacted out environment and accelerated some bad things. The question is to what degree have we done so and how far will it go if we do or dont stop.

The 16 year old in question collected data from NOAA, among others, and applied common sense. If the Emperor has no clothes on, he has no clothes on.

[ebonyknight]

The problem with the few reserves we have left here in our country is that they wouldn't last us more than a decade at best. What would be the point of tearing up a pristine area just so someone can drive to the corner store a few more times?

You do realize that there is more at stake than just "driving to the corner store a few more times", right?

Are you aware of how many products that we use are petroleum based???? Packaging materials, asphalt, medicine, some food production, cosmetics, paints, printing ink, candles, matches, shoe polish, roof shingles, synthetic fibers (didn't someone mention getting away from cotton???), detergents, (thylene, propylene, normal- and iso-butylenes, butadiene, and aromatics such as benzene, toluene, and xylene.) which are the basic chemicals we use for plastics. Do I need to point out how dependent we are on plastics?

That's a short list.

Here's a longer one.

http://gasprices-usa.com/petroleum_based_products.htm

Air conditioners, ammonia, anti-histamines, antiseptics, artificial turf, asphalt, aspirin, balloons, bandages, boats, bottles, bras, bubble gum, butane, cameras, candles, car batteries, car bodies, carpet, cassette tapes, caulking, CDs, chewing gum, combs/brushes, computers, contacts, cortisone, crayons, cream, denture adhesives, deodorant, detergents, dice, dishwashing liquid, dresses, dryers, electric blankets, electrician’s tape, fertilizers, fishing lures, fishing rods, floor wax, footballs, glues, glycerin, golf balls, guitar strings, hair, hair coloring, hair curlers, hearing aids, heart valves, heating oil, house paint, ice chests, ink, insect repellent, insulation, jet fuel, life jackets, linoleum, lip balm, lipstick, loudspeakers, medicines, mops, motor oil, motorcycle helmets, movie film, nail polish, oil filters, paddles, paint brushes, paints, parachutes, paraffin, pens, perfumes, petroleum jelly, plastic chairs, plastic cups, plastic forks, plastic wrap, plastics, plywood adhesives, refrigerators, roller-skate wheels, roofing paper, rubber bands, rubber boots, rubber cement, rubbish bags, running shoes, saccharine, seals, shirts (non-cotton), shoe polish, shoes, shower curtains, solvents, solvents, spectacles, stereos, sweaters, table tennis balls, tape recorders, telephones, tennis rackets, thermos, tights, toilet seats, toners, toothpaste, transparencies, transparent tape, TV cabinets, typewriter/computer ribbons, tires, umbrellas, upholstery, vaporizers, vitamin capsules, volleyballs, water pipes, water skis, wax, wax paper.

I don't think you understand. Life as you know it will end. We will literally be thrown back into the mid 1800's in terms of lifestyle. Are you willing to make THAT sacrifice?

The rest of the first world realizes this, which is why they are drilling like mad and don't let environmentalists, run their government. Even the French are embracing nuclear power plants and I don't know of a more pacifistic people on the planet.

This is about far more than "just so someone can drive to the corner store a few more times" Prices on literally everything you purchase are about to go up in price. I know I sound like an alarmist, but lean times are ahead for all of us.

There could be some serious money to be made in new technology that would be far more sustainable than what we have now and be far less politically charged than petroleum. Even if it doesn't stop global warming, I think it's worth it simply for new wealth creation and to get our fingers out of an area that is desperately due for a Reformation.

There is a push for alternative FUEL, but petroleum is used for far more than just as a combustible. The environmentalists here are too short-sighted to see this. Besides I just don't understand the logic that the entire rest of the world is wrong and we are the only one's who are right. They are drilling like mad for a reason.