UK minister states that date rape is less serious

[Lace Neil Singer]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ger-women.html

This is a controversy that's raging over here at the moment. Basically, a minister who has been long considered to be a soft touch as far as crime is concerned is touting views that rapists should have their sentences cut. He claimed that some forms of rape are less serious than others, for example, date rape.

To my mind, this is wrong. Rape has a devastating impact on the victim, no matter whether it's someone they know or a stranger jumping out from behind a bush, and to say that date rape is less serious shows an alarming amount of ignorance and a lack of understanding for victims' suffering. Turning rapists loose is not protecting the public, which is what this guy is supposed to be doing.

[Greenday]

You know, if he was talking about, say, consensual sex between two people but the problem is that they are like a year off from being legally old enough, I'd understand. But all rape, including date rape, is equally disgusting.

[Ginger Tea]

I think at one point he did say a 15 year old and an 18 year old consenting couple should not be classed as the same as date rape or rape in general, I think its under 13 for statutory rape in the UK but I could be wrong, just shy of your birthday when your b/g friend in the same year as you is now legal does not warrant being put on the sex offenders register.

He did do a fair few interviews after the first re wording what he meant to say, but I can't recal which ones without reading one of the many articles it generated, I'll read the OP link later.

[insertNameHere]

Sounds similar to things over here in America. If I get caught taking a piss in a dark alley within 100Miles of a school, I am now a sex offender classed the same as someone who goes to a school, and rapes an entire kindergarten class, and hell, they might let that guy plead insanity.

But im digressing..... what is date rape? Do you have to know the person? What about a blind date on craigslist, what if you made a daily habit of it, hell sounds to me a lot easier to bait a target into coming to you, rather than spending 4hrs in the bushes OH and you get dinner out of it.


OR do they mean date rape like what almost got me screwed in college. I was with a girl who at this point we had sex about every other night and weren't dating. She was getting sick and took nyquil. Woke up in the morning and told me about this hot dream she had about us doing it last night. and I told her, that um yeah we totally did it..... At which point she started crying and told me I took advantage of her and it was considered rape and I should be ashamed of myself and she should probably go tell someone and I'm gonna pay for this. Am I wrong for thinking, WTF you dumb bitch, we have had sex at least 15 times and while you were feeling under the weather (Ie, she wasn't sick yet but one of those things where you know in the next day or two your gonna have a cold). Nothing ever came of it, and I quickly ended things by hooking up with another girl in front of her, because she obviously had some emotional problems that I wanted nothing to do with her and it took her seeing me with another girl to realize I wasn't interested.

Now if that is considered "date rape" then yeah please lower the charges, but if it is someone who purposely drugs you, ie, ruffees and not gets you plastered drunk because you keep asking for alcohol, we all know that girl who is a virgin that likes to party and goes, it doesn't count I was drunk, bonus points, bitch we gave you 2 real drinks and the special bottle of everclear, was water, hence the no shots..... she still ended up being "drunk" and going home with someone.

[draco664]

Let me get this straight. The minister said, according to the article, that some rapes are more serious than others.

What his detractors are saying, is that rape, unlike any other crime, has no degree of seriousness. That all rapes are equal.

I find that point of view disturbing - along the lines of zero tolerance policies. It's as though they hear the word 'rape' and stop thinking.

[Hyena Dandy]

I agree with draco, and I think some instances of rape are less serious. Which is not to say that there's such a thing as a casual rape, or a rape that's not serious at all.

But, IF the purpose of the criminal justice system is to rehabilitate the offender, or to keep the offender from repeating their crime, then at least SOME parts of the offender need to be taken into account. Rape is always bad, and always traumatic. But if the point of the system is related to the offender, then you have to consider that its likely that a date rapist is a LESS bad person than a forcible rapist. That's not to say that they're a GOOD person, or that what they did was less bad because the point of the rape was probably "I want to have sex" rather than "I want to prove I'm better." And therefore, their crime is less, and their punishment should be less. It needs to be made clear that's not an alright way to get sex, and you will go to prison, preferably for a pretty long time. The criminal probably also thinks that the person they date raped (if they got them really drunk and loopy, rather than knocked them out) really wanted it, because they didn't say NO. They need to understand that consent given while not all there isn't REALLY consent.

IF, though, and I have heard the argument, the point of the criminal justice system is to punish the offender, either to make the point that what they did was wrong, or to provide 'satisfaction' to the victim, then all rapes should be equal. A person who was date raped probably FEELS just as violated as someone who was forcibly raped. They deserve the same satisfaction. And if the point is to make the point to everyone else, rather than the criminal himself, that its bad its symbolically important that people understand date rape is still rape.





I've had similar problems on here, though, so once more I'm going to make clear in as flashy a manner as I can


I AM NOT SAYING DATE RAPE IS OKAY, OR THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DATE RAPED REALLY WANTED IT, OR ANY FUCKING BULLSHIT LIKE THAT, SO PLEASE DON'T RESPOND TO ME LIKE I AM.

I'm sorry, several times I've tried to make clear I'm not advocating something bad, just trying to explain why its less bad than it sounds. Not calling it GOOD. >_>








My last thing, and this is more a question about date rape...

If you BOTH get really drunk and have sex, that's not date rape, is it? I mean, you can't both be arrested, can you? This is more curiousity than anything.

[Greenday]

If you BOTH get really drunk and have sex, that's not date rape, is it? I mean, you can't both be arrested, can you? This is more curiousity than anything.

It's the guy's fault due to the inherent bias for male on female crimes in the court system. Also, we all know women can't rape men anyway since you have to have a dick to rape someone.

/sarcasm

I kinda see what you are getting at, but I really don't see one worse than the other (knocking someone out/drugging them vs. a person fully conscious). Both are really traumatic events and both are fucked up.

[draco664]

I AM NOT SAYING DATE RAPE IS OKAY, OR THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DATE RAPED REALLY WANTED IT, OR ANY FUCKING BULLSHIT LIKE THAT, SO PLEASE DON'T RESPOND TO ME LIKE I AM.

It's a real pity that people can't have a sensible debate about an emotive topic like rape without having to put up brain-dead disclaimers like that one.

I have however witnessed a 'rape' that did not have an adverse affect on the woman. I know it sounds weird, but it's true.

I once (about 12 years ago) walked in on some friends (P & T) having sex. (If you're going to have sex in a shared house, go to your fucking room and shut the door, don't do it in the fucking kitchen while everyone is out...)

T saw me in the doorway looking like , and shouted at P to stop. P turned, looked at me, grinned and kept on going as I beat a hasty retreat. T kept shouting at him to stop, but he didn't until he'd finished.

An hour later, T was laughing about it, slapping P's arm and giving him mock glares. She saw the funny side of being walked in on.

Now, according to just about any rape law in the western world, P raped T. Once a woman says stop, she's withdrawn consent, and whatever happens after that is rape. Did it have a horrific affect on T? Nope, beyond embarrassment. And that incident is exactly why I think that there are different severities of rape.

[Andara Bledin]

Now, according to just about any rape law in the western world, P raped T. Once a woman says stop, she's withdrawn consent, and whatever happens after that is rape. Did it have a horrific affect on T? Nope, beyond embarrassment. And that incident is exactly why I think that there are different severities of rape.

Except in one instance: They could have been playing and had a safe word. In which case, "no" didn't actually mean "no" and was just something to spice up the encounter.

Some people just have no sense of propriety, or decorum.

^-.-^

[Eisa]

^Truthfully, that's what I thought. That they had a different safe word so that she could say "no" without it being the signal to stop the encounter.

I don't know that I can agree that date rapists are more likely to be rehabilitated. Just because they aren't jumping out of the bushes doesn't mean that they don't really get off on the power trip and hurting people. Like technically, I think my ex would be classified as a date rapist, even though there's also about a billion other charges he could have been landed with, too...

With statutory, I do think it's different when it's all consensual but one's 16 or 17 and the other's 18. On the other hand, I know a supposedly "consensual" case where the girl was 12, and the guy was over 30. And he got her pregnant. Twice, I think.

[Evandril]

T saw me in the doorway looking like , and shouted at P to stop. P turned, looked at me, grinned and kept on going as I beat a hasty retreat. T kept shouting at him to stop, but he didn't until he'd finished.

He's lucky it was you and not me...I'd have helped him understand her 'stop' a bit more enthusiasticly *shrugs* Well, unless she spoke up and stopped me FAST, at least. The fact her saying stop wasn't as important to him as finishing is not a good thing, no matter how it turned out, IMO.

As far as 'different' types of rape...the big thing they need to seperate out is consentual and non-consentual and 'too young to consent' or something of the sort...and even that will be a fun one, as the age people are capable of giving consent varies by the person, IMO. If consent wasn't given, or actively denied...Well, I'd not want to add to the overcrowding in the prisons...

[Nyoibo]

The fact her saying stop wasn't as important to him as finishing is not a good thing, no matter how it turned out, IMO

Not necesarily the case, the one time I stopped when my GF said stop I got in trouble for it.

Rape in general is a sticky situation, Personally I'd castrate pretty much any rapist, however proving it is a problem at times, it comes down to a he said/she said situation. I don't see there being different types of rape, rape is rape, rape is sexual intercourse without consent.

Yes, I know that not all rape includes penetration, the WHO classifies rape as "physically forced or otherwise coerced penetration – even if slight – of the vulva or anus, using a penis, other body parts or an object." The 1998 International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda defined it as "a physical invasion of a sexual nature committed on a person under circumstances which are coercive"

Still seems pretty clear cut what rape is, why exactly are there varying degrees?

[Shangri-laschild]

But if the point of the system is related to the offender, then you have to consider that its likely that a date rapist is a LESS bad person than a forcible rapist.
My last thing, and this is more a question about date rape...

If you BOTH get really drunk and have sex, that's not date rape, is it? I mean, you can't both be arrested, can you? This is more curiousity than anything.

Both are incapacitating someone to have sex with them against their will. When you get right down to it, it's not very different at all.

While unfortunately Greenday does have a point about unfair bias, if you take away the bias, neither is at fault if neither of them was malicious in intent (getting the other drunk for the the intent of sex).