Suicide is NOT Painless, Despite What the Song Says

[Jester]

Hate me if you want for this. But this is how I feel.

I’ve been talking to a lot of people about this whole situaiton with Plaid. And I’ve pointed out something that is blatantly obvious, but I’ve gotten arguments about it. And that point is this:

What Plaid did was selfish. Pure and simple, suicide is selfish.

But when I say this, inevitably the person I’m talking to will say, “But he was in such pain.” Yes. Yes he was. That does not make his act any less selfish.

Now, before anyone reaches for the pitchforks and torches, let’s look at that word, “selfish.” What, precisely, does it mean? Well, according to one of the first definitions I found online, it means “concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.” And being selfish is not always a bad thing. Many people too often put the welfare of others ahead of their own, to the detriment of their own lives. It happens every day. And frankly, it would be healthy for a lot of these people to be a little selfish from time to time. Hell, I even told Plaid on more than one occasion that he needed to focus on Numero Uno, i.e., himself, and be a little selfish occasioanlly. Of course, we were talking about women and romance, not suicide, so if he took my advice to the point he ended up at, I’m going to be very upset with him.

And I am upset with him, actually. Because he did act selfishly. He was concerned with his own interest, regardless of the effect his action would have on anyone else. People keep saying “if only he knew how much he was loved.” Well, he did. He may not have known how MANY people cared for him, but he damn well knew he was loved and cared about. The dude was pretty bright, so no one can tell me he was completely ignorant of the fact that people cared for him. I don’t really associate with stupid people, and I associated with him. So don’t say he wasn’t aware of people caring for him. It’s an insult to him and his memory to do so. (Although I do admit that he may not have been able to see through his depression to recognize that…more on that below.)

And Plaid is not the only selfish one. We all are a bit selfish, to be honest. Grief, in a sense, is selfish. WE grieve for what WE have lost. Yes, we miss our friend. But it is OUR pain we are focused on. They say that a funeral is not for the departed, but for those left behind, and it is pretty accurate, as it is the only major social gathering I know of where the guest of honor is never there. And none of this is a bad thing, mind you. It is natural, it is human. Selfishness is not inherently bad. Self-preservation is selfish by its very nature, but no one would argue against it. We as humans grieve, we mourn, we feel things that perhaps it is not in our best interest to do so, which actually makes grief both selfish and self-destructive, if you think about it.

But beyond grief, whenever anyone kills themselves, their friends will often blame themselves, feeling guilty for not having been there more. As many people are doing now with Plaid. But that guilt is mis-placed. Because the ugly truth is that a lot of times, even with the knowledge that they can call someone or a lot of people or help lines, someone who is depressed just won’t be able to take that step towards helping themselves. They can’t see beyond the depression. It is, in effect, a huge brick wall that they can’t get past. Now, it’s my hope that this outpouring of the “internet shoulder,” as one person aptly dubbed it, will help someone see past that wall. Preferably more than one person. But the sad fact is that there will still be people who, no matter how much they read and hear and know about people willing to help them, will not avail themselves of that help.

But back to Plaid. I liked the guy. I liked him a lot. I found him quirky and amusing, and kicked his ass verbally on more than one occasion. Don’t believe me? Go look at the archives. It’s all there. I verbally smacked him upside the head more times than I can count, and more than I’ve done for anyone else on this site, actually. And never once was it about….this. This huge elephant in the room that we’re all tiptoeing around, most of us afraid to say the blatantly obvious truth, that what Plaid did was fucking selfish, and that he hurt a whole lot of people doing it. Including, but not limited to, us.

Yes, he was in pain, both physically and emotionally. No, I cannot understand the physical pain he went through, though I am all too familiar with the emotional anguish. Depression is no stranger at my door. That is an explanation for what he did, but it is not an excuse. If you want to justify his suicide with his pain and inner turmoil, that’s your own problem. I won’t do it. I will call it like it is, as I always do, and say that Plaid was one selfish fucking bastard for checking out like that and putting so many people in pain.

And with that said…God, I miss him. Plaid, the selfish bastard that he was, was my friend. But I’m done crying for him. I’m done with tears. Fuck tears. The Irish have it right with their funerals, as they celebrate the life of the departed, not mourn their death. So in that tradition, today, I lift my glass filled with my favorite rum in his honor, and remember all the things that made him so damn likeable. And forgive him his selfishness.

But just this once. Next time, I’m smacking him upside the head.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I have to agree with that sentiment; I think that suicide is an incredibly selfish act. The dead does not suffer, but the dead person's family and friends are the ones who will be in pain from such an act.

I've been there. I've been so depressed that I wanted nothing more than to go to bed and never wake up. I've been on the brink of just taking an overdose or slashing my wrists, just to end the constant unhappiness and self hate. But what stopped me was thinking of how my death would affect my loved ones... and also, if I'm honest, a dose of bloody mindedness. I didn't want the people who attacked me, who said to my face that they wished I was dead, to win. I wanted to win. Whether I have or not, is another matter. But at least I'm alive, and want to live.

A few years ago, a good friend of myself and my fiance died in a motorbike accident. He often said, to many people, that everyone hated him and that he didn't have many friends. Well, no less than three hundred people attended his funeral. Most of these people had to wait outside, as they couldn't fit everyone in; only his family and closest friends, including my fiance and myself, went inside. Sometimes a person is the worst judge ever of how much he is loved, or how many people are his friends.

[lordlundar]

A couple of days ago, I figured I'd go over my own post archives looking for the post I made about Tiny Dancer's issues and subsequent death. In that post I said some things that I was sure I was going to expect a lynch mob after the fact. In particular that She was a grown woman who made her own choices and the consequences were of her own making.

No lynch mob. In fact, you yourself who I had expected to lead the mob screaming for all sorts of painful death agreed with me. And right now, I find myself agreeing with you. Not out of some silly "I owe you" feeling, but because I feel the same now just as I felt then. He wasn't some person with lower mental capacity who couldn't understand. He was a grown man and very bright. He knew exactly what he was doing and what impact he would have, but he still made that choice.

Do I miss him? Hell yeah. So much stuff about him I will miss. But I know it's not my fault, there was nothing I could about it, and that it was his choice and his actions alone.

And you're right Jester, the Irish have the right idea. Respect the life, not mourn the death. <raises a glass of Sun Tea in Plaidman's honour>

(what? I don't drink booze.)

[Andara Bledin]

The aftermath that is left behind is one of the few very compelling reasons that I will never take my own life.

There is a song on this topic by Dan le Sac vs Scroobius Pip called The Magician's Assistant. I don't feel it was appropriate there, but in a larger topic...
Lyrics
Song on YouTube (note: the music is harsh, and the word "fuck" near the end)

^-.-^

[telecom_goddess]

I agree with is his sentiment. It is a selfish act and the people who do this don't realize the impact they will leave behind. It's an act that is for THEM not anyone else.

Doesn't stop me from missing him though.

And again I think Plaid left his mark on this community and have made people stop and think....and with any luck no one else will do the same thing.

[Greenday]

When it gets to that point, it feels like no one gives a shit about you anyway so if no one else cares about what you are going through, then it's time to only think about yourself since no one else will.

[kiwi]

I think if you are in such despair that you believe there is no other way out then I can totally understand why people do it.
I think people have a right to be selfish, people who are alive are selfish all the time. Of course it hurt his family, his friends and other people but I don't think anyone in that state of mind is thinking clearly.

[Eisa]

Ergh...suicide is such a conflicting topic for me.

I have been suicidal off and on since I was 9 years old. [Ponder that for a moment. And no, it wasn't depression exactly.] I never thought I would live past 18. Well, then I did. So then I decided I would never live past 21. Well...I'm 23 now.

Life gets really confusing and difficult when you never thought you'd still be alive...

I don't know sometimes how I still am. I know that I've wanted to do it. I've counted up the different pills I've had lying around the house. I've mimicked slashing my wrists. My boyfriend [friend at the time] actually called the police on me from across the country when I was 19 because he was afraid I was going to kill myself. Not even intentionally. I was just so numb and dead-feeling inside, that he was afraid I would self-injure to wake myself up and that it would be a lot worse than I intended.

I still get really, really intense bursts of "I don't want to be alive right now." I've almost walked to the ER and checked myself in. Last year, I didn't do it because I didn't want to scar my college roommates for life.

Suicide IS a selfish act. But I can't quite decide--isn't it selfish, too, to want someone to stay here through immense pain and deal with all that, just because you love them and you'll miss them?

I don't really know.

I do miss Plaid, though.

[AdminAssistant]

I've always been of the opinion that if you have a debilitating disease, physical or mental, and decide that you can't deal anymore and want to shuffle off this mortal coil, that you should be able to do so. Take Terry Pratchett, for example. Alzheimer's is an awful disease, and I can't blame someone for not wanting to suffer through it.

That said, I think it is supremely selfish to involve other people in the act itself.

[Andara Bledin]

That said, I think it is supremely selfish to involve other people in the act itself.

Is there really a way to not involve other people? Unless you are truly and completely alone, then someone else will be involved, no matter what you do.

Honestly, I think that being allowed the option to end your own life as a personal choice, particularly in cases that involve chronic pain, shouldn't be refused to those who are suffering.

If it were not something that was considered so taboo, so outside the realm of rational conversation for so many, so many that get left behind wouldn't be left with so many questions... They - we - would have the opportunity to ask... the opportunity to say our goodbyes.

^-.-^

[AdminAssistant]

Is there really a way to not involve other people? Unless you are truly and completely alone, then someone else will be involved, no matter what you do.

I meant the actual act, not the after-effects. Committing suicide in a very public place in a violent manner, for example. A college friend's father shot himself in their driveway, in broad daylight, while she and her mother were home....that's the kind of thing to which I'm referring. Or suicide by cop, where you basically antagonize the police until they kill you (my father tried that one, happily he failed). Not only are you removing yourself for life, and therefore causing grief to family, friends, loved ones, etc.; you're also traumatizing whoever else happened to be around at the time...and that's wrong.

[the_std]

I, too, am very wishy-washy when it comes to the morality of suicide. I understand the desire, the motivation and the drive to do so with the feeling that you mean nothing to no one. However, I'm not sure that I agree with acting on the irrationality that depression breeds, because of how it affects everyone else even marginally associated with your life. So I have no definitive answer there.

However, I am wholly and thoroughly disgusted by anyone who involved innocents in the act of their suicide. Jumping in front of trains or cars comes to the forefront of my mind there. It is completely unacceptable, and there is no easier way to change my sympathies in a situation such as this. The drivers of those vehicles become involved with something so soul-crushing, so guilt-inducing, that it often changes the course of their lives irrevocably. No matter how much pain you're in, no matter how much you want to end it all, you never involve someone like that. Never. That makes you an asshole.

[Elspeth]

I can't count the times that driving my car off into the water and end it would be better then what I am going through. Then I think of my friends and family and they always make me stop. I can't imagine the pain Plaid was in but there are always ways to try and fix something. This is the second friend I have lost to suicide. I fucking hate it. And I do feel guilty about not be able to help them.

I miss Plaid a lot. Hopefully some good will come of this horrible act and it might keep someone else from doing this. Maybe they will call someone and get the help they need.

[Rapscallion]

I don't really want to get overly involved in this. However, the moderating team did put a lot of effort into avoiding this outpouring of grief over the last year or three. I'm proud of the effort that was expended, and though I was warned away from getting involved on grounds of personal liability, I'd do the same part I played again. I wasn't the main mover in most of it, but I was involved in pieces.

What I did learn from before, though, is that for Plaidman it was a depressive illness and he even spoke of it before saying that when it took hold of him, it convinced him that everyone would be better if he were gone.

Selfish is irrelevant. He wasn't in control of himself. It was the nature of the illness.

One of my colleagues volunteers at the Samaritans and I got some advice from him. You cannot give advice. Only be there to listen. Any sort of advice can lead to the person in question internalising the matter and blaming themselves. He also said that the UK Samaritans gets thirty percent of its email contacts from the US (or at least his branch does. They'll help.

Rapscallion

[Ree]

Hate me if you want for this. But this is how I feel.

Wow.
I didn't realize Plaid's suicide was all about you.

Of course suicide is selfish.
A person who resorts to such a desperate act is obviously not thinking clearly, though.

I find it arrogant and pompous to label Plaid an asshole for doing what he did.

To claim that we are focused on our own grief is really rather presumptuous.
Maybe you are focused on your own grief, and your own disgust that one of your intelligent friends whom you had deemed worthy of friendship had disappointed you with his suicide, however, even through my grief, I was able to empathize and sympathize with his family and other friends and offer support.
How dare you call me selfish!

There were several others that, rather make some judgmental diatribe on a forum roasting and trashing the memory of a very troubled young man, I happen to know for a fact have reached through their pain to make sure other CS'ers were doing OK through supportive messages in email, on Facebook, and in PM.
Even one member with whom I have never had the best rapport, was made aware of my own personal pain and has sent several messages of support to me.
I have been amazed and so very proud of the community spirit that showed itself in Plaid's tribute thread as numerous people stepped forward, despite their grief, to offer their shoulder to anyone who needs it.
How dare you call them selfish!

Perhaps, as you verbally smacked him upside the head with an "honest asshole" brand of tough love, you could have taken a moment to really empathize what living with hellish pain every moment of every day feels like.

Maybe even imagine the pain of looking in a mirror and seeing a misshapen face that, in your eyes, makes you a monster, even if well meaning people with attractive or "normal" faces tell you it doesn't matter, and good self esteem is so much more attractive.

Imagine the pain of desperately seeking someone to love and thinking you've found that because one girl or another smiles and plays with your emotions like you're a kitten at the end of a string, and then pats you on the cheek and tells you she just doesn't care for you in that way, but she loves you like a friend.

It's called empathy.

That's a hell of a lot more than saying, "I know what it's like to be depressed, but I didn't kill myself."
Great.
We'll have a medal made.

I'm sorry if this has come out as a personal attack, but I don't know of any other way to address what was said by the OP.