Suicide is NOT Painless, Despite What the Song Says

[Lachrymose]

I've always been of the opinion that if you have a debilitating disease, physical or mental, and decide that you can't deal anymore and want to shuffle off this mortal coil, that you should be able to do so. Take Terry Pratchett, for example. Alzheimer's is an awful disease, and I can't blame someone for not wanting to suffer through it.

That said, I think it is supremely selfish to involve other people in the act itself.

I have a pretty extreme view actually.

I believe anyone, for any reason, should be able to take their own lives at any time.

However, that doesn't make the act any less selfish. Nor does it make it any less painful for friends and relatives to deal with.

The selfishness works both ways, by the way (as Jester touched on). The family/friends who want someone to stay alive for their own benefit (in whatever way), are also selfish.

ETA: Actually, looks like Jester didn't touch on that directly. I'm speaking before the fact, he's speaking after.

ETA2: Also, I feel this needs clarifying somehow, but I don't know how. I don't take it quite as matter-of-factly as I state it here. I would be in terrible pain knowing someone very close to me committed suicide no matter what I state above. (I wouldn't consider Plaid close personally. I don't think we've ever interacted. I could be wrong. Still, it was quite the shock). Doesn't change the way I feel it SHOULD be though.

[Peppergirl]

Wow.

I'm rarely speechless. I am right now, though.

Suffice it to say: I'm just really glad that we directed Plaids mom to CS rather than here, where he has been more active as of late.

I'm cringing at the thought of her reading this.

[the_std]

You know what? I don't feel guilty for having a contrary opinion than the outpouring of fluffy love on CS. I have not made mention of anything I think about him here except for what I think of the exact method he chose of his suicide. I believe that the actions of his death were the asshole thing to do. I've not said anything about the person he was up until he chose this method to kill himself. Him dying does not make him perfect, and a controversial act like this is bound to raise opinions that do not all agree.

I am glad that everyone has shown their support on CS, but I don't believe that anyone should be demonized for not thinking that he was an angel, or that his actions were above reproach. And I knew his mom has read the thread on CS, which is exactly why I brought it up here, and not there. Because we're allowed to talk about these things here. And not agreeing does not make us bad people.

[Eisa]

My opinion on suicide is still wishy-washy...but I don't believe thinking that it's selfish is a bad thing either. I see where Jester is coming from. And the_std. I still feel the fluffy love and support. Jester also said people could talk to him on CS, which is nice as now I have someone else I can bother at night.

Buttt on the other hand, I can see why people would commit suicide, too. I mean...I can't count the number of times I've been suicidal. With a specific plan. So...yeah, difficult.

[protege]

Selfish is irrelevant. He wasn't in control of himself. It was the nature of the illness.

That's exactly what happens. Depression acts very much like cancer. That is, once it takes root, it spreads, usually without the 'host' even knowing it. It can change someone's personality, make them lose interest in things, and, in some cases...can kill them. I know all about it firsthand--I've had to deal with it most of my life. You don't know what it's like having those thoughts in your head, and having to deal with them yourself. Trust me, it fucking sucks.

With that said, I do know people who have killed themselves...

Plaid, for one. He had some demons to deal with, but he really was a good guy. I didn't know him very well, but I did chat with him from time to time. I kinda understood what he was going through. I know what it's like to be alone--all he wanted was someone to love him for who he was. Been there, done that too. Is that really so terrible?

Some of you know that my neighbor killed himself a few months back. Sometime around Easter, in fact. From what I've heard, he and his wife were having problems. I do know that he had some mental issues--he was a bit strange, but was usually in a good mood, and always nice to "the kid from down the street." I know that he loved his children, and again, was a good guy. In fact, I never heard him utter something bad about anyone.

What sucks, is that he seemed OK the day before, and I'd seen him earlier in the day that he died. In fact, I could have sworn I saw him at his mother's across the street...when I was coming home from an afternoon of MG cruising. Didn't think much about it until later.

That evening, as I was playing some GTA 4--and running away from the cops--the sirens seemed to get louder, even though I'd turned the computer off. I went outside, and was like There were cops everywhere! Still didn't know what was going on...until the coroner's van showed up. That's when the pieces started to come together.

My neighbor and his wife were having some problems, and had a huge fight earlier that day. She took the kids and went shopping. I guess he'd said some things to his parents, before taking his own life. What sucks, is that he killed himself in his house...and his dad found the body on the floor

[Ree]

You know what? I don't feel guilty for having a contrary opinion than the outpouring of fluffy love on CS. I have not made mention of anything I think about him here except for what I think of the exact method he chose of his suicide. I believe that the actions of his death were the asshole thing to do. I've not said anything about the person he was up until he chose this method to kill himself. Him dying does not make him perfect, and a controversial act like this is bound to raise opinions that do not all agree.

I have agreed that suicide is selfish.

It just seems like a dick thing to start a thread like this only a week after his death, especially in light of the fact that the CS thread is still active with people still finding out the news for the first time.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a discussion about suicide and how it affects others, but most decent people wait until the body is cold.

Death does not make someone perfect, and, personally I detest when people put the dead on a pedestal and slap on a halo.

Plaid was not perfect. None of us are.
He had many faults. All of us do.

I just feel that a diatribe against his manner of death could have waited a bit.

[Jester]

A couple of days ago, I figured I'd go over my own post archives looking for the post I made about Tiny Dancer's issues and subsequent death. In that post I said some things that I was sure I was going to expect a lynch mob after the fact. In particular that She was a grown woman who made her own choices and the consequences were of her own making.

No lynch mob. In fact, you yourself who I had expected to lead the mob screaming for all sorts of painful death agreed with me.

Because you were right. What happened to Tiny Dancer, while depressingly tragic, was brought on by decisions that she herself made. The situation sucked, but to say she was without blame would have been disengenuous.

I think if you are in such despair that you believe there is no other way out then I can totally understand why people do it.
I think people have a right to be selfish, people who are alive are selfish all the time.

Yes they are. And it bears repeating that being selfish is not always a bad thing. Sometimes, it is absolutely necessary for our survival.

I have been suicidal off and on since I was 9 years old. [Ponder that for a moment…]

I don’t need to ponder it, as I am familiar with it. My little sister actually came very close to attempting suicide (as in had the knife in her hand) when she was that same age, 9. right after our father died. She was Daddy’s Little Girl. I don’t think I need to explain further.

Suicide IS a selfish act. But I can't quite decide--isn't it selfish, too, to want someone to stay here through immense pain and deal with all that, just because you love them and you'll miss them?

Yes, it is. But as I said in the OP, being selfish is not always a bad thing.

I think that being allowed the option to end your own life as a personal choice, particularly in cases that involve chronic pain, shouldn't be refused to those who are suffering.

Agreed. And it may surprise some people to know that I actually support the Right to Death movement. I always support people having the right to make their own choices. I believe in personal freedom very strongly. That does not, however, mean I will always agree with the choices people make. And I don’t think that that is in any way hypocritical.

The drivers of those vehicles become involved with something so soul-crushing, so guilt-inducing, that it often changes the course of their lives irrevocably.

As do those who witness such things. My best friend still remembers very clearly a day over 20 years ago when she witnessed a guy (who was coincidentally a dorm-mate and friend of mine from college) get killed when he wrecked his motorcycle right in front of our high.

He wasn't in control of himself. It was the nature of the illness.

No, Raps. The nature of the illness is to cloud one’s judgment, and make things appear worse than they may really be. It does not, however, take control of you to the point where you are without any choices. It may SEEM like you have no choice, and we can argue about perception vs. reality, but many others have been gripped by that same illness and had similar perceptions, but been able to walk away from the precipice rather than jump into the abyss.

Just as Tiny Dancer shared some of the blame for what happened to her, Plaid cannot be held blameless for his actions. To do so would insult his intelligence and others who suffer from this same disease.

I didn't realize Plaid's suicide was all about you.

I never once said or believed it was. These were merely my thoughts on the matter, nothing more. To which people are more than free to disagree.

I find it arrogant and pompous to label Plaid an asshole for doing what he did.

I hold my friends accountable for their actions, whether it be TD or Plaid killing themselves, or simply my friend Popcorn acting like a douche in a bar. And I expect them to do the same to me…and they do.

Look, I’m mad at Plaid because of how much I liked him. I’m pissed. I’m not the only one is, either. And I am going to call it like I see it. That does not in any way lessen my respect or affection for the man. I am mad at him for what he did, not for who he was. To illustrate, I’ll quote a source I almost never quote, the Bible: Love the sinner, hate the sin. (If I messed that quote up, it’s because I’m not that familiar with the source material.)

To claim that we are focused on our own grief is really rather presumptuous.

It may be presumptuous, but it is also for the most part true. It’s human nature to do this, and it’s not a bad thing. It’s a method of coping built into us to help us deflect the true horror of tragedy when it comes our way. It’s a tool for survival. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

…even through my grief, I was able to empathize and sympathize with his family and other friends and offer support.

As was I. As did I. On multiple occasions. And due to that, a few people have reached out to me, some merely to talk about nothing, and I have talked about nothing with them.

How dare you call me selfish!

Actually, I didn’t. I merely suggested the idea that grief itself may be a selfish thing, and that was actually suggested to me by a third party, someone for whom I have a great deal of respect. That idea may or may not be true—I think it is; as I mentioned above, I think grief is a coping mechanism hard-wired into the human psyche—but be that as it may, I never once said that any CSer were themselves selfish for grieving.

There were several others that, rather make some judgmental diatribe on a forum roasting and trashing the memory of a very troubled young man, I happen to know for a fact have reached through their pain to make sure other CS'ers were doing OK through supportive messages in email, on Facebook, and in PM.

I have a problems with this. Specifically, I did not “roast” or “trash” Plaid or his memory. I merely expressed my anger at what he had done. I am not the only one angry or upset at him for it, either. Nor is this unique. It is common for friends of suicides to be mad at them, and then feel guilty for being mad. But it’s natural to be mad. Wouldn’t you be mad at someone else if they had killed Plaid, rather than Plaid doing it himself? He took a friend away from, so of course we’d be mad. I do not think this in any way tarnishes Plaid’s memory. I’d like to point out that while I said how mad I was at Plaid for what he had done, I also said how much I’d miss him. I praised him for being him, and I criticized him only for his choice of exit.

I have been amazed and so very proud of the community spirit that showed itself in Plaid's tribute thread as numerous people stepped forward, despite their grief, to offer their shoulder to anyone who needs it.

As have I. And I have been one of those offering their shoulder, repeatedly. That offer stands, uncompromised and unwavering.

How dare you call them selfish!

Not once did I call any individual CSer selfish, other than Plaid for his suicide. I merely suggested the idea that grief itself may be a selfish emotion. And it may be. And there is, as I have said repeatedly, absolutely nothing wrong with this. Sometimes it is necessary to be selfish. Sometimes our very survival depends on it.

Perhaps, as you verbally smacked him upside the head with an "honest asshole" brand of tough love, you could have taken a moment to really empathize what living with hellish pain every moment of every day feels like.

Maybe even imagine the pain of looking in a mirror and seeing a misshapen face that, in your eyes, makes you a monster, even if well meaning people with attractive or "normal" faces tell you it doesn't matter, and good self esteem is so much more attractive.

I did. I took several moments. Often directly with Plaid, who would text me from time to time, sometimes for advice, sometimes just to chat, sometimes with something completely out of left field that gave me a chuckle. I could not understand what he was going through physically, and while I could somewhat understand the mental side of it, I obviously couldn’t know exactly what Plaid was going through, as I am not Plaid. But I could empathize, I could sympathize, and I did both. I do both with many people, whenever and wherever I can. Because while you may view me as presumptuous and arrogant (and many times I am guilty of either or both of those), when it comes down to it, I counsel people a whole hell of a lot. I listen, and I offer my ideas, and sometimes I can help, and sometimes I am saddened that I can’t. But when it comes down to it, I firmly believe, and have always believed, that my very purpose on this earth is to bring people smiles. My handle is not chosen lightly….it is who and what I am. I am here to brighten the mood.

That does not mean I won’t express my opinions, though. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Imagine the pain of desperately seeking someone to love and thinking you've found that because one girl or another smiles and plays with your emotions like you're a kitten at the end of a string, and then pats you on the cheek and tells you she just doesn't care for you in that way, but she loves you like a friend.

This is something I don’t have to imagine, as I have lived it, on more than one occasion.

It's called empathy.

That's a hell of a lot more than saying, "I know what it's like to be depressed, but I didn't kill myself."
Great.
We'll have a medal made.

No medal. I don’t seek rewards for helping people. I just help them. And I don’t brag about it, either. I have simply said what I’ve said about it here to respond to your comments. Look, I’m not perfect. Never claimed to be.

But I stand by my comments, as those were my opinions. You can agree or disagree. You can praise me or condemn me. But this is how I feel, and I will not apologize for expressing it. And clearly I am not alone in my anger towards Plaid for what he did. That doesn’t make our grief inferior to anyone else’s. It just makes it different. And for that I won’t apologize either.

I'm sorry if this has come out as a personal attack, but I don't know of any other way to address what was said by the OP.

I did not find it to be a persona attack in any way. If anyone else did, they shouldn’t. Just as I expressed my feelings, you were expressing yours. If anyone has a problem with you for doing so, they’re gonna have to go through me to get to you.

Ree, you and I have not always seen eye to eye. Something tells me that that is not going to change. But I respect you and value your opinion. Probably a lot more than you realize. And while I won’t apologize for expressing myself the way I did here, I am deeply sorry that it hurt you so. But I had to get these thoughts off my chest, and I felt I said some things that needed saying. I knew that it was probable that some people would not understand why I felt these things needed to be said, and some would not agree. But that did not change the belief that I still had to give voice to these ideas. Perhaps that is, as you said, selfish. I don’t know. But I do know that, despite that, I believe everything I said in the OP, and I stand behind every single word of it.

Suffice it to say: I'm just really glad that we directed Plaids mom to CS rather than here, where he has been more active as of late.

I'm cringing at the thought of her reading this.

That was the single most powerful factor for my decision to post it here, rather than in OT, as I had originally intended. There were other reasons I was persuaded to post this in fratching, but that was the one that trumped the others.

Not that I don’t believe what I wrote. But I was conflicted about who would see it. I still am.

I believe that the actions of his death were the asshole thing to do.

His chosen method was incredibly selfish, more even that the decision to take his own life. I do not know how anyone can argue that point.

It just seems like a dick thing to start a thread like this only a week after his death…

Then perhaps I am a dick. Clearly some people think so. In truth, I acutally wrote the OP several days before I posted it, when the emotions were raw within me. I believed it then, as I believe it now, but I delayed the posting of, as I knew some would not understand.

But this brings up the obvious question: when WOULD be an appropriate time to post this thread? I can’t and won’t claim to know the answer to that question myself, but
I honestly believe that those who think I’m a dick for posting this would think so if I posted this now, a week from now, a month from now, a year from now, or whenver I posted it.

As I’ve said, this was something I had to get out, as it was eating up at me. Could I have delayed it. Yes. Could I have delayed it with a clear conscience? No. And if that makes me a dick, so be it. But ask yourself this: if you had something eating you up from inside, could you contain it? And for how long?

Death does not make someone perfect, and, personally I detest when people put the dead on a pedestal and slap on a halo.

We agree on this. And yet, if you read the CS thread on Plaid, that is exactly what a lot of people have done. Don’t get me wrong, I am not criticizing anyone for it. It is, like grief, human nature. But it has been happening.

In the end, I can only try to explain myself, as I will not apologize for expressing my feelings, nor do I feel I should. I though Plaid was a helluva guy, I considered him a friend, and I was—and am—angry with him for taking my friend away from me. Away from us.

Am I selfish? Am I a dick? Am I presumptuous? Perhaps. But in the end, Plaid is still gone, Plaid is the one responsible for Plaid being gone, and I am not the only one angry about it. As for where each of us falls in this debate, that is for each of us to decide individually.

[Librarian]

In my view, any person who feels he's in too much pain (emotion, physical, both) should have the right to end his/her life. Even if they do understand all the grief and mourning that will inflict on their loved ones. Even if they don't.

When we had to put our dog down after 14 years - i felt it would be selfish of me to let him live on. He was in constant pain in multiple places.
I had to judge it would be better for HIM, not for those left behind, to go on, even though it left our family in mourning.

Who the hell would i be then if i deny any person the right to take his/her own life - after having judged on one for myself.

My two cents: Remember who the person was, love and hate him for it. I'm not advocating to put any of the dead on pedestals - but don't let their last action trigger a stronger dislike for them either.

[Ree]

I will not apologize for expressing my feelings, nor do I feel I should.

Of course not.
I didn't expect that. I never expect that.

I don't necessarily think you are wrong in your anger.
Anger is a stage of grief.

Your timing sucks.

I don't expect any apology for that either.

But this brings up the obvious question: when WOULD be an appropriate time to post this thread? I can’t and won’t claim to know the answer to that question myself, but
I honestly believe that those who think I’m a dick for posting this would think so if I posted this now, a week from now, a month from now, a year from now, or whenver I posted it.

Perhaps you might have waited until you are sure Plaid's family isn't still coming to read his posts in an attempt to understand what happened, or to seek comfort in the community that reached out to their son, and to them in their grief.

Actually, if you had waited another week, I wouldn't have had such a problem with it.
I would have felt that a raw wound had started to scab a bit, and nerves were healing. While this might have come off as ripping off that scab and digging in the wound just a little, that would have seemed a little better than just poking at an open sore and adding to the pain.

As I said, I have no problem with a discussion of suicide.
I think your timing around that discussion could have been better in this circumstance.

Just remember and respect that you posted your feelings and thoughts on a debate site, so they will be debated.

[McDreidel09]

Imagine the pain of desperately seeking someone to love and thinking you've found that because one girl or another smiles and plays with your emotions like you're a kitten at the end of a string, and then pats you on the cheek and tells you she just doesn't care for you in that way, but she loves you like a friend.

That's really not fair. Him and I talked about all of this. I apologized to him and admitted that the things I did were wrong. We both apologized for things we had done and put the past behind us. We became great friends again and were talking every day. I did love him, but it just didn't work out. Please don't speak for me because most people here know what you are referring to.

I miss the guy. We had put the past behind us and were on the road of friendship again. The moment I found out about his death, I cried for hours. At work the next day, I had to excuse myself so I could get emotions out. Did I feel angry? Yes. I felt angry at him and then angry at myself because of the crap I pulled before, even though he had forgiven me for it.

[telecom_goddess]

I knew this thread would stir up a lot of feelings and controversy. I'm really glad it's here and not cs it wouldn't have been appropriate there at all. But here it should be a safe haven to pour out all your feelings...whether they are the fluffy love kind or the rage you might feel at Plaid or anyone else who has done this act. The OP doesn't care for Plaid any less, he's mad that he would commit this act and leave people behind to grieve. The fact that it was selfish is never going to change and the fact that Plaid wasn't thinking of that due to be taken over by depression is never going to change either. This is not the first time he tried it this was just the time he was successful. He told me once if he attempted it again he would have been thrown in the mental ward for 6 months. Well he made sure that didn't happen.

As for suicide because you're terminally ill that is a different story. We euthanize animals to put them out of their misery, why can't we just do that for ourselves? We should be able to control the end of our lives if we are in the grips of something terminal...imo.

[Peppergirl]

Just speaking for myself, but I'm not offended by the *content* of the OP's post.

Because I don't want to make this about me, I won't get into why, but suffice it to say that I have alot of experience with the anger that suicide sometimes brings.

The thing that horrified me is the timing of it. Yes, we're a debate site and we are here to hash out the tough issues. However, I also believe in decorum and tact and waiting an appropriate amount of time to do so.

I'm sure the next question will be: "Well, what's an appropriate amount of time?"

I don't have an answer for that. I just know that it's not a week. But I guess I should feel fortunate that it wasn't a day or two like he originally wanted to do, right?

Also, if the OP was intent on making the post, perhaps it would have been a decent gesture to PM a mod in order to verify that his family wasn't here. Lets face it, Plaid was much more active over here lately than he was at CS - so would it really be a stretch that we would have invited his mother and sister here too?

Jester - I don't think you're an unfeeling bastard - far from it. I appreciate that you've reached out and advised the community that you're there for them if they need you. I simply wish you would have thought this through a little more. I know there's nothing I could say that would convince you that you're wrong, but there you have it.

[Jester]

But I guess I should feel fortunate that it wasn't a day or two like he originally wanted to do, right?

Not that it's that important in the grand scheme of things, but I feel I need to clarify this point. While I did write this several days before it was posted, it was not written "a day or two" after Plaid's death. I believe I wrote the original draft on Friday, though I cannot be absolutely certain of that. I held off posting it for several days, as I have said.

And while I have received much criticism for it, I have also received much praise for it, both publicly and privately. Clearly I was not the only one that felt this way.

In the end, one fact remains: Plaid is gone. If people want to criticize me for how I feel about it and how I reacted to it, or of the timing of it, that is their right. I believe, however, that I have made myself clear.

This started out simply as my goodbye to Plaid. It didn't end up that way, but that is how *I* will end it for me.

Goodbye, my friend.

[Hyena Dandy]

Anger is a natural response.

And Jester is right on one point. Suicide can be selfish, at the very least. But sometimes, you can't see through the selfish. And that's the point that was made earlier in the thread. Depression is like a cancer. And it can blind you. It can convince you that NOBODY would care. It can convince you that the world would be better if you died.

People kill themselves for all sorts of reasons.

I had another friend kill himself on the same day that Plaid did. I'm seeing a lot of people angry about suicide, since that group tends to be a little less mature, their anger has been a little more vicious.

Its important to remember that suicide is never a reasonable thing. I've tried to kill myself several times. Well, three, that's several, yeah? But that doesn't mean it should be glorified. Plaid was, from what I can tell, a good person who did a bad thing.

Anger is good. It helps. What's important is to remember the difference between being angry at the thing, and angry at the person that did it.

Anyway, I haven't posted about Plaid's death yet, and I wanted to make it clear its not that I didn't care. I was a bit ambivalent when he was alive, and I never got to know him. I can see, from reading his posts, and posts about him, that I would really have liked to. I'm sad I never got the chance. I haven't felt qualified to talk about his death because I wasn't close, but I wanted to say my part. That I really wish I'd gotten to know him better.

On another note, the other reason I haven't brought him up is that I've been processing my other friend's death as well...

I hope you don't mind, and the moderators can feel free to delete this, but I'm gonna talk about him a bit before I get back on topic and try to summarize my thoughts.

My other friend I lost, Dragon, had effected me a lot more. He'd played a sort of cartoonish villain in a group of trolls... He was the 'bad guy' because he tried to stop us, but he was always one of us. He was a member of the forum, and he didn't really hate us. We put up a show of arguing on the forums, on some matters, and fought in public. Kind of like The Flash and his Rogues. In the end, though, he was one of us. He wasn't always on my side, but he was one of us.

There's a reason I said this, and the reason I hope that's not deleted, is because really that's similar to how I feel about Plaid. I wasn't close. We had some disagreements. But he was one of US. Sometimes I feel like I should say you, like its a bit presumptuous of me to call Fratching 'us', but I will anyway. He was one of us. And even when you've fought with someone, it always hurts to lose one of us. There are people on this forum who have made me put down the computer in anger more times than I can count. But I still would never want to see anything bad happen to them. There's one person who I have blocked because I can't read that person's post without growling. But I wouldn't want anything bad to happen to them.

Anger is good. It can motivate us. It can bring us strength. Seeing two people in groups I consider myself part of, however presumptuously, has done much more to stop the suicidal thoughts I've been having than anything else ever has. So, I guess I should thank them for that, though I don't think that's worth anyone's life for me to learn.



Anyway, rambley thought summation, conveniently including numbers as I like to do.




1) Anger is good.
2) Moving on from anger is important.
3) Make sure your anger is at the right thing.
4) I lost two friends that day. Ouchies.
5) Even people I can't stand I don't want to see hurt.
6) If you think I want to see you hurt, I apologize. PM me. We'll talk.
7) I forgot where I'm going with this... Just... Sorta petering out.
8) Oh, right. I didn't know him that well. But I wish I did.

[Ree]

That's really not fair.

Did I say I was talking about you?

He had recently been telling me about a girl in one of his classes who had been sending him mixed signals, and he was feeling that maybe she was interested, and was considering opening up to her about the fact that he liked her.

I heard from him a week or so later and he was bitter because she had told him she only liked him as a friend.

A long time ago, shortly after we started chatting on Yahoo, he had told me about another girl with whom he had a great online rapport, but when they actually met, that was the end.

That one was when the seeds of low self esteem were planted and started to sprout.

There have actually been several women over the years who played the "I love you like a friend" game.

That was why finding someone to love him was so important to him.

If you saw yourself in what I wrote, I have to wonder why?