Suicide is Not Painless, Part 2.

[Jester]

This thread is not about Plaidman, but it is about the same thing the original thread was about. To wit, how suicide is a selfish act.

As some of you may know, a while back I was romantically involved with an old high school friend from Phoenix, Nurse Betty. While we are no longer officially dating, we are still friends, and we still enjoy each other's company when we see each other.

A while back, around the time we were involved, Nurse Betty tried to kill herself by stabbing herself in the throat. She ended up in a psyche ward for a few weeks, and eventually was released, with some prescriptions for various meds. In the intervening time, she has gotten a new job, one she initially liked, and a job that is good, and provides for her and her children. It is not always an easy job, but it is one that has, until recently, mostly been satisfactory to her.

In recent weeks and months, she has expressed some negative feelings about the job, but she knew she couldn't just quit it without first finding a new job, which she had been looking for, without much success.

I had noticed in recent weeks that she had started drinking again, like she had a couple years ago, and more worrying to me, she had started smoking weed again. I knew this was not a good thing, but didn't see where this was leading.

A few days ago, she made a second attempt at suicide. And once again, she is in a psyche ward, though she seems to be doing better than her first go-round. Her family is telling her job that she is dealing with some personal issues, without being specific, to account for the time off. Hopefully this will be enough to prevent her from losing her job. Her boss likes her and trusts her with just about running the business, so hopefully she won't lose the job.

And I was talking to her mother "Susan" the other day about all this. Susan gave me the details of how this all went down, including how Nurse Betty's 19 year old son got to see his mother taken away by the police in the state she was in, and that, in his own words, he "could never un-see that."

And Susan and I agreed that Nurse Betty was being very, very selfish. For the record, Nurse Betty does not have any terminal or disfiguring disease, or really any physical ailments that could in any way justify suicide. She does have two children, the previously mentioned 19 year old son and a lovely 12 year old daughter. And there is no question in either Susan's or my minds that this event, and the overall situation, is affecting, and will continue to affect, both of the children. And not in a good way.

And we are angry. We are angry at Nurse Betty for putting us through this, and we are equally angry at her for putting her children through this. What does this tell them? That Mommy doesn't think life is worth living? What does that teach them? How is THAT for a role model?

For various reasons that I will not go into, neither of her children really have much (or any) dealings with their respective fathers. In at least one case, I think that is for the best, as one of the fathers is a certifiable violent psychopath. But think about it: no father figures in their lives, and their mother is a weed-smoking drunk who is trying to kill herself? She has issues, certainly, but damn it, she's 40 fucking years old. Time to grow the fuck up.

Can life suck? Absofuckinglutely. I KNOW I am blessed with my life, which even when it is not always peachy, is still pretty damn awesome. And I know that there are times when Nurse Betty feels the burden of being a parent, and as wonderful as her kids can be, they can also be a handful. But damn it, suck it up. Grow up. Do your job as a mother, and raise your fucking kids. And be a better role model.

Susan realized that it might sound awful and selfish that she was somewhat worried about how this would affect her upcoming vacation with friends, but I agreed with her that it was yet another example of how selfish this whole thing is. After all, this would be Susan's first vacation since her long-time husband died a couple of years ago, and she deserves it. And she's already paid for it. But clearly, if Nurse Betty is not able to care for her daughter, Susan will not be able to take that vacation. Not only is it selfish in the sense that Nurse Betty is causing so much pain to so many people, damn it, she is fucking with people's lives. She is messing with her kids' heads, she is inconveniencing a lot of people, and while that sounds harsh, it really isn't when you consider that this is not the first time, that this has been an ongoing thing that Susan has had to deal with. And she, like me, is sick of it.

Criticize Susan and me for being selfish ourselves. And perhaps some criticism is warranted. But damn it, we are entitled to enjoy our lives, as we have made them what they are. And NB has been doing this too many times and for far too long. And it's not just her life she's playing with, it is, as I have mentioned repeatedly, the lives of her children. Just where would they be without her? Especially her minor daughter? With her psycho father? Being cared for by either of her rather elderly grandmothers? (And how is that fair to either of them, incidentally?) As a ward of the state? Arizona's foster child care system is not exactly a model for good parenting.

I'm sick of this shit, I'm sick of Nurse Betty not realizing that her actions are selfish and that they affect a great number of people, from her mother to her children to her friends to her coworkers to her brother to her father and his wife, who were the ones who had to call the police from across the country when they were talking to her on the phone and realized she was going batshit crazy.

How the fuck is this shit not selfish as all hell?

Susan is angry. I am angry. And we feel we have every right to be.

[Ree]

I'm sorry.
I know you are upset and angry about what your friend has done.

I don't fault you for that anger, and I do feel very bad for Susan.

Sometimes, though, a person does have to show some empathy, and I never see that from you when it comes to this topic.
I didn't see it in the "Plaid" thread at CS, and I am not seeing it here.

What I am seeing is judgment.
It's almost as if you are feeling because you are strong enough to get through the crap in your life and deal with it, then everybody should be able to get through the crap in theirs.

Yeah, suicide is selfish.

You have already proven that in the other thread you started at CS to discuss this issue.

A person who commits such an act is insulating their pain and directing all of it inwards.
They aren't thinking of others.
They are only thinking of their own pain and often, they really do come to believe that the world would be a better place without them in it.

Your friend probably felt that her children were better off without her.
Now you may know that isn't true, and the kids would actually be scarred and devastated by what their mother tried to do, but she cannot see that.

You can't make her see that.
Some people just aren't mentally or physically strong enough to resist the hold of depression, or understand that they have other options. When depression takes hold, rational thought can go by the wayside.

Yes, thinking the world would be better without you in it, and actually committing an act to achieve that is a very selfish thing.

As hard as the consequences are on the survivors, why can't that selfishness be forgiven and understood?

Obviously any rational person would not do something like that.

[jackfaire]

Yeah it doesn't sound like she is being selfish it sounds like she is suffering from mental illness brought on by chemical imbalances.

What your description of her behavior reads as is simple, she is on an upswing life is good she is feeling positive and then her brain chemistry forces her towards depression taking her further down in an attempt to treat herself she self medicates with weed and alcohol going for the numbing effect.

Eventually this no longer works and she gives into her feelings of despair and a need to end it all. What she needs is more than the bandaid solution of being in a psyche ward she needs to enter therapy and quite possibly find a medication that works for her so that self medication doesn't become an issue.

(the previous applies to my ex-wife as much as it does to your friend)

[Jester]

Ree, I am hurt and I am angry. I will not deny that. I will point out that you saw no such post from me the first time NB tried this, because I was busy doing everything I could for her, as much as I could do anything from 2600 miles away. But I called her every day I could, talked to her, and tried to help her through it. Regarding Plaid, I made it VERY clear on CS that I would be there to listen for anyone who wanted to talk.

I am empathetic, up to a point. I am not trying to be judgmental. But this is not a first time for this with NB, and I am not the only one who is getting angry with her. And whatever you may think of me, how is this in any way good for her children?

And regarding her children, NB alternates her stance. At various times, she has said either that her children would be better off without her, or that she knew that they would not be better off without her, or even that she felt trapped because she never asked to be a mother.

Yes, I know she is suffering some form of mental illness, but we (Susan, myself, and other friends) have gone out of our way to do all we could for NB, and she basically doesn't want to take her meds, doesn't want to see her therapists, wants to make excuses for this, that and the other, and insists that Life Just Isn't Fair. Just how long do you think we should be empathetic to her when all the previous efforts at helping her have basically been ignored, marginalized, or discounted out of hand?

I don't have all the answers, and I've never claimed to. I don't expect that everyone is going to be able to deal with their lives as I have with mine. (And I don't think I've always dealt with my life in the best way, either.) But there comes a time when people need to take responsibility for their actions, and start being responsible for those that are dependent on them. I actually care greatly for NB, and it pains me more than I may let on to watch her go through this. It pains her mother, too. But that does not lessen our anger at her selfish actions, nor are we going to lie and say those actions are not selfish.

What would YOU have us do? We've been there for her, we've been empathetic and sympathetic, and it has been apparently futile.

I was not able to have that chance with Plaid, as I never was close enough to him to fully understand the depth of his depression. For that, I don't think I can fault you for taking me task for expressing my anger towards him.

But at what point in this cycle would YOU stop coddling the person and tell them the truth, that their actions are causing more harm than good, that they are hurting those people they claim to love and care for? (For those wondering, at the moment Susan and I are only expressing our anger at NB to each other, and I on this forum. We have not said anything like this to NB when we were able to talk to her.)

Seriously, Ree, what would you do? What would you have us do? What would you suggest we do to help NB? Because I am at my wit's end, and if you have some idea, some suggestions, some advice that will help us help her, I WILL ABSOLUTELY LISTEN.

[Jester]

What she needs is more than the bandaid solution of being in a psyche ward she needs to enter therapy and quite possibly find a medication that works for her so that self medication doesn't become an issue.

Agreed. But when all this went down, she basically had two options: the psyche ward or jail, due to police involvement. While Susan and I don't know that the psyche ward is the best place for her, it is clearly a better option than jail. Also, the psyche ward is a temporary thing, and the professionals there will do what they can to see that she gets back where she needs to be.

As for therapy and medication, as my previous posts indicate, she knows she needs meds and therapy, and she makes excuses for why she doesn't always address those needs. Hopefully this time will be different.

[Mikkel]

" If it's all the rest of us who are killed by the suicide, it's himself whom the murderer kills; only he has to do it over, and over, and over." (Ursula leGuin, The Word for World is Forest)

That may be one reason why we find it difficult to forgive our friends who commit suicide or tries to. They hurt our pride by wanting to get rid of us or at least not seeing us for their own pain.

Are all suicides irrational, though? I had a friend who had terminal cancer. She kept on until she knew the end was near, her life was only pain and was ending anyway. She send her boyfriend out to buy something, took all her painkillers at once and was dead when he came back.

As you know I have had cancer myself, I found that Karen's example, knowing I didn't have to suffer the full consequences of my illness, actually helped me getting through operations and chemo.

The hospital just found a possible new tumour yesterday. I swear, I will hang on, I won't hurt you and my family by leaving prematurely, but I don't know if I will stay through the terminal stages, should it come that far.

I see the discussion have moved on while I tried to write my thoughts down. I don't know how you can help NB, she has to understand the danger signals herself and seek help before she get too far into depression. Even living with her wouldn't necessarily help. She is ill, hopefully she will understand that this time.

[jackfaire]

My dad's suicide has colored my whole life and even in small things affects everything I do.

[Jester]

NB got out today. I got a text from her mother earlier today.

And then she called me a few hours ago, and we talked for well over two hours. Some of it was good, some bad. I am, for better or worse, part of the problem. As I am here, and Not There. Although NB realizes to some extent that, even if I were there, we would probably not be a couple. She touched on it, but I didn't think it was appropriate to go deeply into that, or why it would be.

She also thanked me for being so blunt and honest with her in general; as she said, she comes to me for The Truth, as so many of her friends will lie to her and tell her what they think she wants to hear, including her mother. That was good to hear, though a bit disturbing, as it pretty much made me out to be a harsh ogre bastard, though I am sure she didn't mean it that way.

I am drained and tired.

I feel happy and horrible, for some of the same reasons, an d for different reasons.

Don't any of you dare put me through this. I am so exhausted, and drained, and tired, and over this. Don't you dare. You all need to live your lives and find some joy in them, because I can't continue to be the font of happiness for other people.

Yes, I am rambling. No, not all of it will make sense. I just know that I can't deal with more people I care about killing themselves. I just can't.

I'm going to crawl back into my bed shortly and watch mindless tv on my dvr. And then sleep. Thank beer for Sundays off!

Are all suicides irrational, though? I had a friend who had terminal cancer.

It may surprise some of you to know that I am an advocate of the right to die, and support people who do have terminal diseases who decide to end things on their own terms.

[Mikkel]

I am drained and tired.

I feel happy and horrible, for some of the same reasons, and for different reasons.

Don't any of you dare put me through this. I am so exhausted, and drained, and tired, and over this. Don't you dare. You all need to live your lives and find some joy in them, because I can't continue to be the font of happiness for other people.

It is extremely exhausting to talk with someone who are mentally ill, especially when you are friends. I'm sure you have helped her by being your usual ogre self , both now and in the past.

It may surprise some of you to know that I am an advocate of the right to die, and support people who do have terminal diseases who decide to end things on their own terms.

You hinted in the OP, where you said that NB weren't even terminally ill.

[jackfaire]

That was good to hear, though a bit disturbing, as it pretty much made me out to be a harsh ogre bastard, though I am sure she didn't mean it that way.

It makes you the only one in her life with guts.

Everyone else is so afraid of sending her over the edge that they will let her fall off the edge rather than grabbing her hand and telling her to hold on.

[Jester]

I wouldn't go that far. Her mom has been pretty awesome, and is not shy about telling her what she thinks, and her little girl has just been amazing in this whole thing, far more than you would expect from a 12 year old girl.

Sadly, I don't know if that will be enough. NB does seem to have some resentment towards her kids, even though she recognizes that they are not to blame for their existence. It's all kinds of fucked up, I know.

Making it worse is the fact that she thinks that if I were out there, we'd be a couple, and things would be better. And although intellectually she understands that right now it would be economic suicide for me to move there, she can't accept it. And the fact remains that if I DID live out there, we would probably not be a couple, because she is very clingy and possessive and non-social, and she at times resents the fact that I am so social, and that she is not the only person I am going out there to see. Yeah, if I lived there, our relationship wouldn't last long. But of course, this is not the time to discuss that. She drives me nuts, but I do adore her, and we've been friends for over 20 years.

As I said, it's all kinds of fucked up.

[LexiaFira]

I'm sorry.
I know you are upset and angry about what your friend has done.
I don't fault you for that anger, and I do feel very bad for Susan.
...
Yeah, suicide is selfish.
...
A person who commits such an act is insulating their pain and directing all of it inwards.
They aren't thinking of others.
They are only thinking of their own pain and often, they really do come to believe that the world would be a better place without them in it.
...
Some people just aren't mentally or physically strong enough to resist the hold of depression, or understand that they have other options. When depression takes hold, rational thought can go by the wayside.

Yes, thinking the world would be better without you in it, and actually committing an act to achieve that is a very selfish thing.

As hard as the consequences are on the survivors, why can't that selfishness be forgiven and understood?
Obviously any rational person would not do something like that.

on the subject of suicide. and selfishness. one person i recall once told me. She is still around. My point is this.
When I was attempting to talk her down from it with the point of her being selfish from wanting to end it, she retorted why am I selfish for wanting to die? How come you aren't selfish for wanting me to have to endure all this pain?
I admitted that yes she had a point, and that it is painful, but it was selfish because with her gone if she did do so, it would affect all those in her life more than she knew and that yes it is painful but no matter how much you believe it, you are NOT a burden on any of us and we would be WORSE off without you.

I don't claim to have made her do anything or not do anything but had hoped that she was still somewhat sane enough to hear me out.

Yes the person who wants to commit suicide is selfish, and yes they are in pain, but are we also not selfish for not understanding their pain? Of course we don't want that person to die or cause self harm yet its like two different places. one person feeling isolated and in enough physical or emotional pain that he or she honestly believes the world is better off without them, and the person or persons not wanting them to die and trying hard to get the other person to see reason.

I'm no expert so i don't claim to know how to fix it, only that what i do know is sometimes it takes putting yourself in their shoes even if you think its silly or that you can handle it, not everyone can

[jackfaire]

Yes the person who wants to commit suicide is selfish, and yes they are in pain, but are we also not selfish for not understanding their pain?

It depends on why you want them to live.

You can understand their pain. You can also understand that while some pain is not treatable that most is and want to help them.

It's not selfish to be thinking of how that person's death will affect their parents,friends, children etc. That person is only thinking "I want to die" that is selfish.

When my dad did what he did I was pissed not for me but because I saw how it destroyed my family. And that is why us not wanting people to die isn't selfish.

If someone takes their own life it will suck for me and I will hate it but I would rather that I be the only one that feel that way.

[Eisa]

Eurgh.

I agree the psych ward is only a band-aid solution for stuff...my sister ended up committed...4 times in a year? 5 times? Once was involuntary, but that was so the state would pay for it. But that had just gotten worse for her because every time she told her psychiatrist ANYTHING about how she was feeling, he wanted to put her back. But it temporarily helped with the suicidal feelings and homicidal feelings and psychosis, so that was good. But there's also the fact you can just lie, and she did...telling them that no of course she wasn't having those thoughts anymore... I worry 'cause the first time she 'snapped,' she was dealing with post-partum psychosis/depression and she's pregnant again.

Anyways. That's a difficult question about when it's time to stop being empathic when they refuse to do anything to help themselves. Cuz there's a difference between things not working and just not actually doing the things that might help. THAT is frustrating beyond words.

[telecom_goddess]

Jester I am sorry you are having to go through this. I really hope it can resolve itself. I've heard of stories of people who were on the edge and managed to bring themselves back and not be suicidal again. Me being one of them.

I'm curious to see what Ree has to say in response to this....I personally don't think he's being non empathetic at all. He HAS been there for me to talk when I needed to. Along with the therapy and meds I"m trying right now. I'm finally in a place where I can find some peace with what Plaid did, and Jester was part of that, along with many other people from here...you know who you all are

I get the feeling that once Jester is your friend he is fiercely loyal....and will do just about anything to help that he can possibly do. It's just more through actions than words....although the words are there too when it's directed at you.