I'm A Law Abiding Citizen. Why Is My Life So Worthless?

[Rapscallion]

Doesn't fit the criteria necessary for castle doctrine to apply.

Wounds to the front, and only one witness to tell what happened. Your side of this argument assumes that the person defending their property isn't going to take the chance to use castle doctrine to take a little revenge (and gain a carpet cleaning bill).

Damn, I'd be tempted. Despite what I've said in this thread, I'm not against the death penalty, but I am against it's application like this. The very fact that people feel such offence from injustices done to them means that it's a case of high feelings taking hold. That's the very reason we have a legal system of impartial (supposedly) people to try the claims of those offended against.

By the standards of castle doctrine, the case you cited would have been plain old ordinary murder, no legal about it.

Only if the houseowner had been daft enough to say to the police, "I had him in my sights when he was trying to get away, and I shot him anyway." It's a murder case if it goes to a court of law, but if he just tells the cops investigating that the guy was coming for him then there's very unlikely to be anything happening legally.

You're quite happy for a law to be in place for the right circumstances, but the reality is that there are more than a few people in the land who would be happy to use it to further their own beleifs about how the law should be enacted.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

Only if the houseowner had been daft enough to say to the police, "I had him in my sights when he was trying to get away, and I shot him anyway." It's a murder case if it goes to a court of law, but if he just tells the cops investigating that the guy was coming for him then there's very unlikely to be anything happening legally.

You're quite happy for a law to be in place for the right circumstances, but the reality is that there are more than a few people in the land who would be happy to use it to further their own beleifs about how the law should be enacted.

Rapscallion

I've thought that too myself. But I'm still convinced that nearly everyone, if not everyone will use it for the correct purposes. If people are planning on murdering someone, they'll do it wherever they want. Plus, you can't run from evidence in your own home...

[Rapscallion]

I've thought that too myself. But I'm still convinced that nearly everyone, if not everyone will use it for the correct purposes.

Sorry, but I'm not as optimistic as that. The castle doctrine came about because many people thought it was a good idea to shoot people in self-defence. I'm sure a decent percentage would take advantage due to a love of vigilanteism.

Rapscallion

[BlaqueKatt]

I even understand that most don't find the need to lock their doors, while we have steel bars and steel gates welded to our door frames. Unfortunately, the media has effectively created an atmosphere of paranoia that makes the hijacking of our country, so easy.

these are the demographics for my city-college town of around 200,000

this is the "crime map" for this year

crime stats 2003

crime stats 2006

the only thing that has dropped in three years(2006 stats are not available) is motor vehicle thefts and we went from 7 murders to 4(we have already had more than that this year already)


I've lived here for 12 years, in that 12 years:
I have witnessed 3 shootings(as in visually saw the gunman)
heard shots fired at least 14 times
been involved in a violent robbery(AM was beaten almost to death with a crowbar-216 stitches, 4 skull fractures, 6 broken ribs and a fractured vertebrae where I saw the perpetrator but his GF lied for him and he was acquitted)
held a burgler* in the basement of the apt complex until the police arrived(he served 2 months)
witnessed a brutal attack on my mother and her boyfriend-she was hit by four teenagers with 2x4s that were breaking into her car(she went to jail because one of the teenagers lied and said she called them a racial epithet and kicked her-my mother is now deaf in one ear and blind in one eye from the attack)
had one of my friends brutally murdered-along with 5 of his friends(murderer hung himself awaiting trial)
Had my wallet stolen(pickpocketed)
have had three different criminals forcibly attempt to enter my house
my husband was mugged(perps 4th victim of the night-3rd one was violently assaulted) by two men-they got $10 and his cell phone-he got a black eye(and he knows Aikido)-they have never been caught


Trust me the media has nothing to do with it


*said burgler was found to be carrying a knife, zip ties(riot cuffs), and condoms-police asked why-he admitted if any female had come into the basement he would've "had some fun"

[Zyanya]

Wounds to the front, and only one witness to tell what happened. Your side of this argument assumes that the person defending their property isn't going to take the chance to use castle doctrine to take a little revenge (and gain a carpet cleaning bill).

A safe assumption, considering it doesn't occur except in extremely isolated incidents. As I said earlier, this 'retort' is in the same category as the women who have 4 abortions a year.

The average human being is not a cold-blooded murderer.

[DesignFox]

ya know, if the legal system were less inclined to award criminals money in a lawsuit against the victim, I'd bet people would feel less inclined to want the intruder dead.

Dead men tell no tales and dead men can't sue you for injury.

As long as you didn't shoot them in the back, you'd have a fair case for feeling threatened. Which would put the onus on the dad guy's family to prove he was harmless to you, in which case, what the fuck was he doing where he didn't belong in the first place?

And I agree with Greenday- I still don't think that many people would shoot to kill. If someone is running away, you'll be calling the cops. And if the intruder doesn't have a weapon, he'll probably be running away.

[ebonyknight]

I've lived here for 12 years, in that 12 years:
I have witnessed 3 shootings(as in visually saw the gunman)
heard shots fired at least 14 times
been involved in a violent robbery(AM was beaten almost to death with a crowbar-216 stitches, 4 skull fractures, 6 broken ribs and a fractured vertebrae where I saw the perpetrator but his GF lied for him and he was acquitted)
held a burgler* in the basement of the apt complex until the police arrived(he served 2 months)
witnessed a brutal attack on my mother and her boyfriend-she was hit by four teenagers with 2x4s that were breaking into her car(she went to jail because one of the teenagers lied and said she called them a racial epithet and kicked her-my mother is now deaf in one ear and blind in one eye from the attack)
had one of my friends brutally murdered-along with 5 of his friends(murderer hung himself awaiting trial)
Had my wallet stolen(pickpocketed)
have had three different criminals forcibly attempt to enter my house
my husband was mugged(perps 4th victim of the night-3rd one was violently assaulted) by two men-they got $10 and his cell phone-he got a black eye(and he knows Aikido)-they have never been caught


Trust me the media has nothing to do with it

I think you have misunderstood me. I am not saying that there is no crime and that the media is somehow lying.

I am saying that crime occurs here and abroad. Canada has a good amount of crime as well. But the media scares us here with the news that there is a rapist around every corner, while the Canadian media, doesn't.

[Rapscallion]

A safe assumption, considering it doesn't occur except in extremely isolated incidents.

How do you know?

Rapscallion

[Zyanya]

How do you know?

Rapscallion

I pay attention.

[Rapscallion]

To what? If someone's used this method to kill someone who wasn't threatening them, they're not exactly going to be boasting about it.

Rapscallion

[Zyanya]

To what? If someone's used this method to kill someone who wasn't threatening them, they're not exactly going to be boasting about it.

How few people have been shot dead in the act of entering the front door of someone's home.

[Rapscallion]

I have to admit that I haven't met one

Truth to tell, I have no idea. How often has Castle Doctrine been used resulting in the death of an intruder?

Rapscallion

[Zyanya]

I have to admit that I haven't met one

Truth to tell, I have no idea. How often has Castle Doctrine been used resulting in the death of an intruder?

Rapscallion

It's rare. That's why I find the arguments against it so patently absurd.

[Rapscallion]

Murder itself, as a percentage of overall crimes committed, is fairly rare. On those grounds, do you find the laws against it absurd?

Rapscallion

[Slytovhand]

Ummm... yo.. Pedersen... I've finally gotten around to doing this one (there's too many connected threads, with too many similar - but slightly different - arguments to do it all cohesively..)

Anyway... Does this seem vaguely familiar..

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Obviously, it's not law per se, but it does have a lot to do with the laws that have been created.

"Why is my life so worthless?" - in the context of comparing it with a wouldbe or convicted criminals.

Well - because that criminal has the same right - life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness (which, in this particular debate, means making you unhappy).

There are laws in place to deter (and punish) if people want to affect someone else's rights of any of the above.

So... your life isn't 'so worthless' in this context, it just isn't valued any more than any other person's - criminal or not.

Given that... if a criminal affects your rights and will be punished for it by the laws of the land, ought not you also be affected in the same way? If it is murder that a person is punished for (the taking of life), ought not you also be punished for the same taking of life?


EK....

I think that's the problem. That's what YOU'RE talking about. Not the others. The problem is that in this country, the laws are there, but the lawyers and criminals are distorting "justice". I can't believe how many asinine lawsuits I have seen where a criminal was injured in the commission of a crime and sued the homeowner and FRIKIN WINS!!!!

Nope... that's not the initial argument at all... it was Pedersen saying that he ought to have the right to have weapons to defend himself (cos it came from 2 other threads about that topic), so he went the more moral and philosophical approach here. We're talking about the right to life, and whether the laws for the defendant should encompass lethal force or not - only.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with criminals winning litigation against their attempted victims... different thread (is there one??).

(not that I don't agree with your point.... justice is getting more and more blind... and stupid!)

Slyt