What is rape? (long)

[gremcint]

Rape is being talked about a lot lately in general and in specific cases. A problem I keep having with some of these stories is whether or not someone actually committed rape. I'm not going to cite specific stories but just pose hyopthetical scenarios just see what people think. I will list my own opinion on it as well.

First off I'm going to include all types of sexual activity under one blanket term rather than get caught in a discussion of rape vs sexual assault. So when i refer to rape I'm referring to basically any unwanted activity involving certain body parts. Also I'm going to probably go back and forth on gender terms here but this will apply to whatever species/gender you can think of.

Ok now for the obvious stuff, if it involves physical threats or you are physically forced then yes it is rape. if you are unconcious it is rape. If they drug you or know you were drugged against your will then it is rape. if you are beneath the age of consent then it is rape.

Is it rape if:
you are drunk (by choice) and wouldn't normally have sex with them but chose to now.

you are drunk (by choice) and don't really understand what is going on but he thinks you do understand and he starts making out with you and escalating it buy you're not resisting or saying no.

then replace drunk with drugged (dope, heroin, crack, meth etc.) leaving the "by choice" in.

I'm going to say no for most of the time. If he's sober he may be taking advantage of you but how are they supposed to know exactly how drunk you are? and then they may be drunk themselves impairing their ability to judge your judgement.

you were drugged not by choice but not by her and she doesn't know it wasn't by choice, is it rape?

again I'm saying no, you are a victim but she's not a rapist.

now someone is trying to get you drunk, with the intent on sleeping with you but they never threaten you or really force you to drink. (hard to describe properly but it's been done in tons of sitcoms)

They're a complete sleaze but rape no, because you had the choice to say no to the drinks and no to the sex and the ability to put a stop to it.

If you need money/favor and they offer it in exchange for sexual activity.

that is prostitution, depending on the situation they may be an asshole though.

I am actually going to quote one for this case just because the person said it well already.
http://theferrett.livejournal.com/16...3495#t80293495

there was a young couple (she was a high school sophomore, he was a junior or senior), and neither one was very experienced. He had no idea she had previously been molested (by a family member when she was extremely young). They were dating, and had made out a few times previously. He got the idea to go down on her, thought she'd like that, and did so. She froze up when he did this. He likely thought that was just her enjoying what he was doing... he had no idea she had frozen up because she panicked, most likely flashing back to earlier trauma. Had he seen her face he probably would have realized something was very wrong, but, well, with what he was doing he couldn't have seen that. He stopped after a while and found that she was shivering... I imagine he thought girls just did that after orgasming or something. I don't imagine he ever found out why she dumped him the next day.

I'd say the guy didn't rape her purely due to intent.

Also if you know how you are when you're drunk (violent, slutty, stupid, easily influenced etc.) and you make a decision to get drunk then you are making a decision to be violent, slutty, stupid, easily influenced etc.

I thought I'd have more scenarios but honestly they all kind of just boil down to the same sort of question. basically when does it stop being taking advantage of something and start being rape?

This was partially inspired by the photo here:http://theferrett.livejournal.com/1652087.html

my judgement in the case of this photo is her friends are slime, and she probably was raped but I don't have enough data to make a firm judgement. specifically did she say no, was she capable of saying no, did she resist. Basically this is where the first question comes from, it's also why I wanted to be hypothetical.

If you have more to add feel free or other scenarios, I will offer my opinion on them.

Edit: forgot, what if one party is mentally handicapped in some way.

In my opinion I would have to draw the line at if they were tested and still legally considered an adult then no as that is part of legally being an adult, age of consent sort of thing. That is mainly because because mentally handicapped is such a broad definition and I have to draw the line somewhere.

[Gravekeeper]

First off I'm going to include all types of sexual activity under one blanket term rather than get caught in a discussion of rape vs sexual assault.

There is no discussion, there are legal definitions to work with. The distinction is also extremely important.

you are drunk (by choice) and wouldn't normally have sex with them but chose to now.

No, operative word here is "choose".

you are drunk (by choice) and don't really understand what is going on but he thinks you do understand and he starts making out with you and escalating it buy you're not resisting or saying no.

Yes, you may be incapacitated by choice, but you are not coherent enough to consent.

then replace drunk with drugged (dope, heroin, crack, meth etc.) leaving the "by choice" in.

Does not change it. If the person, male or female, is incapable of giving consent, it is rape.

I'm going to say no for most of the time. If he's sober he may be taking advantage of you but how are they supposed to know exactly how drunk you are? and then they may be drunk themselves impairing their ability to judge your judgement.

They still chose to have their judgment impaired and thus are responsible for their actions while impaired. If you are, for some stupid reason, attempting to sex up someone who is impaired while you are sober, you should be vividly aware of their ability to consent. Specifically because you may be raping them.

you were drugged not by choice but not by her and she doesn't know it wasn't by choice, is it rape?

Look, the only universal rule you need to work from is: If you do not give consent, it is rape. If you were drugged, but not by choice, and are incapable of giving consent, and she has sex with you, its rape. Period.

They're a complete sleaze but rape no, because you had the choice to say no to the drinks and no to the sex and the ability to put a stop to it.

Totally sleezy yeah, but comes back around to consent. If she does not give it, says no, resist, etc. Totally rape. The important thing is, again, consent.

Also if you know how you are when you're drunk (violent, slutty, stupid, easily influenced etc.) and you make a decision to get drunk then you are making a decision to be violent, slutty, stupid, easily influenced etc.

Correct.

I thought I'd have more scenarios but honestly they all kind of just boil down to the same sort of question. basically when does it stop being taking advantage of something and start being rape?

When consent is not given. -.-

I am actually going to quote one for this case just because the person said it well already.
http://theferrett.livejournal.com/16...3495#t80293495

Certainly damn stupid of him and unfortunate all around, but I wouldn't label sexual assault no.

Edit: forgot, what if one party is mentally handicapped in some way.

Depends on whether or not they are legally capable of giving consent. IE are they mentally handicapped but legally capable. Or are they mentally handicapped and legally incapable of handling their own affairs ( Someone else has power of attorney, they require round the clock care, etc ).

[Greenday]

If you aren't given explicit confirmation that sex is a go, and they are somehow impaired, even if they drank/drugged themselves, it's rape.

It's really quite easy to figure out. If you aren't certain or have any doubts, don't do it. If you are with someone new and the thought, "How drunk/high/etc. are they?" goes through your mind, you don't do it. If ANY thought goes through your mind that makes you doubt that if the person was more sober or clear-headed they wouldn't do it, you are taking advantage of someone who is impaired a.k.a. rape.

[DrFaroohk]

Just a question here - in many if not all states, it is legally considered rape if you sex up an intoxicated person. But what if both parties are intoxicated?

[Greenday]

Just a question here - in many if not all states, it is legally considered rape if you sex up an intoxicated person. But what if both parties are intoxicated?

First person to claim they didn't want it wins the court battle.

Or more likely whoever initiated things will be the one in trouble.

[Sleepwalker]

If your threshold for sex is 'didn't resist hard enough' you have some serious issues. You're fucking with a person, not sticking your dick into a blowup doll.

[Beckpatton]

I believe that rape occurs the minute consent is refused, rescinded, or the person is incapable of giving it, yet someone makes them do it, or goes ahead with it anyway .. and yes this means I think it's ok for a person to ask to stop mid way through for whatever reason, and if the other person doesn't stop, it becomes rape... it might not be 'fair' but neither is making someone do something they no longer want to do.

Also like others have said, when it comes to intoxication, whether by alcohol or drugs, when in doubt.. Don't!!

[Jester]

No means no. Period. It doesn't matter if it's early on, or when you're both naked. If she says no, and you continue, congratulations: you are now officially a rapist.

If you do this with one of my nieces, congratulations: you are now a dead rapist.

[Sarah Valentine]

I believe that rape occurs the minute consent is refused, rescinded, or the person is incapable of giving it, yet someone makes them do it, or goes ahead with it anyway .. and yes this means I think it's ok for a person to ask to stop mid way through for whatever reason, and if the other person doesn't stop, it becomes rape... it might not be 'fair' but neither is making someone do something they no longer want to do.

That's how it happened with me. I told him to stop when he ignored me and kept going it scared me, and I was too stunned to move or say anything. After that I just left, after a couple of months I told my sister and she told me I shouldn't be quiet about it. I told his brother and his friends what happened, I found out later on that they beat the ever living shit out of him while I was out of state visiting my relatives.

[Eisa]

That's how it happened with me. I told him to stop when he ignored me and kept going it scared me, and I was too stunned to move or say anything.

Yep. There's nothing like saying "no" and being utterly ignored...people ignore the "frozen" option of "fight or flight," I find. It's fight, flight, or freeze.


At my university, they had presentations that were basically on how it better be an of-age, sober, enthusiastic "yes!", not just the absence of "no."

[HYHYBT]

Double standard may not quite be accurate for something so reversible, but whatever you call it, there is something very wrong with what sometimes happens when *both* parties are functional but not entirely sober: the accused will be considered guilty of rape, on the principle that you are responsible for what you do while drunk/high because you chose to put yourself in that situation, but the accuser will be treated as a victim even if they gave consent because, apparently, the one action you're *not* responsible for while drunk/high is consenting to sex. Even though the only difference is who complained afterwards. Passed out is different, of course. But it hardly seems fair... or even remotely logically consistent.

[Andara Bledin]

The reason why the one who initiates is guilty while the one who receives is not is actually clear-cut: If you are impaired, you are not mentally competent to make such a decision on your own behalf. It would be the same as if someone got drunk and then took advantage of a woman who was mentally impaired. It may not have been the intent, but in a situation such as this, it will only matter as regards the degree of the transgression.

^-.-^

[kibbles]

It is also awful when someone who simply regrets a night of casual sex and decides to call it rape, it makes it so much worse for the real victims out there.

[Jester]

I found out later on that they beat the ever living shit out of him while I was out of state visiting my relatives.[/FONT]

A round of drinks for those guys! Bartender, I'm buying!

And another round of getting-his-ass-beat for the douchebag in question!

[Andara Bledin]

I've been raped. Though in my case it was a matter of my not being able to give consent, but not because I had chosen to become unable to do so but because I was nowhere near an age to even know what I was consenting to do, not that the people I did it with were much better.

It took me a very long time to realize how messed up I'd gotten from that, and I can't imagine the others were much better. I don't blame them for their actions, though. It was a stupid thing done by a bunch of stupid kids who didn't know any better, and I blame a society whose primary reaction to nearly everything sexual is a blanket ban and enforced ignorance.

^-.-^