Racial insinuation?

[Fenrus]

Okay, taken from http://www.customerssuck.com/board/s...d.php?p=344933

Is it just a passing "this person happened to be THIS race" or is it more a "this person is this way because of his race".

Is it a PC thing to jump on someone who mentions race, or more a person problem with bigotry?

Your thoughts?

[AFPheonix]

I personally think it's an overreaction. It makes as much sense to harp on the race part as it does for someone to harp that she identified him as male. That could be sexist and all.

[anriana]

I personally think it's an overreaction. It makes as much sense to harp on the race part as it does for someone to harp that she identified him as male. That could be sexist and all.

English practically requires identifying the gender of someone you're telling a story about as the correct and less awkward pronouns are gender-based. Hir and ze haven't caught on quite yet.


How many times do you hear "We called him cranky white guy?" or "cranky straight guy?" Demographic descriptions are only used to point out and Other minorities, that is why people get upset.


Personally everyone I know who needlessly points out other people's races is an actual racist and it's hard to remember my sig everytime I encounter a new person doing the same.

[AFPheonix]

You can identify by pronouns, but my point was the specific descriptor of "guy". They could have easily described him as "that cranky indian person", yet they did not, and no one jumped on the OP's case for being sexist for identifying his gender.
Nothing from the post on CS indicates that they were describing him as Indian because his crankiness was due to his ethnicity. It is simply a descriptor, and should not be any more significant than calling him the "Cranky guy who always wears a red shirt".

[ArcticChicken]

I think the problem people are having isn't the fact that race was mentioned, it's that race was mentioned in conjunction with a negative term, i.e. cranky. If he had been the Sexy Indian Guy, would you have gotten on the OP's case?

Race is a perfectly valid descriptor, so long as you understand that description is all that it is being used for. For example, the community I live in is mostly white, with the second largest population group being black, and any other races coming in a poor third. So, were he to walk into my store, he'd be "That cranky Indian guy", because he's a lot easier to identify that way then by saying "That one really cranky guy, about yea tall, shortish hair, with the scar on his jawline", where as a white or black person is "That cranky, elderly <insert race here> lady, with the whiny daughter" because saying "That cranky <white/black> lady isn't going to narrow down the options very much.

[DesignFox]

I avoid using race as a descriptor as much as possible on the boards only because written word is so easy to misinterpret.

I personally see no problem with using ethnicity as a descriptor- it's not racist to describe someone by mentioning the color of their skin or their background.

It would be prejudiced if the descriptor was used by saying "all indian people are cranky" or "all white people are trash" or "all jews are cheap."

But saying to someone, "Oh yea! He's the tall black guy!" isn't a racist remark. It is simply a way of differentiating that tall guy from the white tall guy.

*shrug* people are so sensitive about everything and it's just plain silly.

I think the mods get on top of it a bit because such discussions don't normally end well. The preference is to head off a problem before it starts.

As for the sexist thing...well...I guess that's an interesting point. If you say, "the cranky guy" no one is worried that you described the person's gender. They take it for what it is- a description of the person.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I just think it's being oversensitive to the point that the person complaining is the one who seems racist to me, not the person using the description.

For example, I have two friends who have the same first name; some of my friends only know them by their first names, so seeing as one is white and one is black, I describe them as such to differentuate as using the surname would be pointless, as some of my friends don't know either as well, or only know one and not the other. Incidently, my black friend has called me "crazy white girl" before; he's not being racist either, just stating a fact.

[Ree]

If I'm not mistaken, using the word "Indian" to describe someone of native or aboriginal descent is derogatory. Using it to describe someone from India is probably fine.
The OP didn't specify, but since he is not from North America, I am inclined to believe it was the latter usage, so it was not used in the less PC manner.

In that thread though, it just came across as a potentially problematic and insulting usage.

The whole joke was based on a name that was slightly mocking of the guy's race.
"Cranky Indian Guy II".
It's too 'cutesy' and could be construed as a veiled racial comment.

Really, why is the guy's race relevant?
He's a cranky guy who happens to be from India.
How is the joke any funnier by mentioning his race?
If it becomes less funny by taking the mention of race out of the equation, then perhaps the mod, who ended up being raked over the coals, had a point after all by questioning the inclusion of the man's race in the joking and mocking nickname.

Oh yeah...and people need to learn to use the freakin' report button.

[ebonyknight]

Well, since the thread is closed, I couldn't clarify.

While I explained to Snowbird, my rationale for finding the issue (in general) offensive. I did not find the OP offensive at all.

The person he was talking about was called "Cranky Indian Guy". Should whomever first coined the term have used his race? Probably no, but Edible was relating the guy's (in essence) name. And then went on to relate it to CIG II. The sins of the father......

Anyway.....

While I don't find the use of racial descriptors racially malicious, they are indeed an indicative sign of institutional racism.

Ironically enough, I had this type of conversation with an Indian girl in college (my GF's roomate). A guy had stopped by and she took a message and wrote it down (this happened a lot). My GF and I returned and got the message. Next time I saw her (I was feeling in a mentally frisky mood) and asked her why she pointed out that he was black? She got a confused look on her face and asked me what I meant. Well, yesterday when "felix" stopped by (not the black guy) you didn't mention that a white guy stopped by. Why did you feel the need to point out that "pablo" (black guy) was black but didn't mention that "felix" was white? She told me I was being silly and I pressed her why? She ironically got mad at me and wanted to drop the subject, because I was offending her.

IMO it's an institutional conditioning that "white" is "normal" and doesn't need to be mentioned. "non-white" is not normal and must be pointed out as being different.

Now I will admit that as a Gen "X"er I am quite surprised and pleased about how the millennium generation gets along. Unlike my generation and previous ones, I don't think I ever hear the millennium generation using such descriptors or have the apprehension about race that the older gens do. While being PC now has "whites" on edge (ironic), the millennium generation seems oblivious to the tension between older generations.

Quite an improvement. Now if they just weren't so damn self centered!!!!!

[Zyanya]

While I don't find the use of racial descriptors racially malicious, they are indeed an indicative sign of institutional racism.

The high school I went to was predominately Mexican.

When a friend described me to someone else as 'the white girl in Mrs. Redd's class', are you saying I should have been offended?

The reason it is used as a descriptor is simply that it is a good descriptor in most cases, especially in areas where the predominate race is that of a different ethnicity.

There was no racism meant in the statement my friend made, he just picked the quickest way to narrow down who I was.

While some who make the statement may be racist, it should not be assumed the statement itself is inherently racist nor based in racism.

For better or worse, I am blond and thus look 'white'. Oh teh noes, how dare someone notice?

[ebonyknight]

I thought my statement was quite clear.

While I don't find them to be intentionally racist (IE your friends reference to you), it is indicative of a society based in racism.

She decided to use race instead of other descriptors (your hair color, your build, your eye color, etc) to single you out. While this is a generality, not a lot of "mexicans" have blond hair or blue eyes. Assuming these apply to you, they could have been used, rather than "the white girl in Mrs. Redd's class."

What if you were obese? Would you find it appropriate for her to call you "that fat chick in Mrs. Redd's class"? Or were missing a limb, "that gimp in Mrs. Redd's class"?

After all "it is a good descriptor in most cases".

Just because there is no malicious intent on her part, doesn't mean it's not wrong. I am sure you would say the same about blacks calling each other "nigger". They may not have malicious intent, but it's still wrong.

[Snowbird]

I wanted to share something that I thought was appropriate, copied and pasted from the Mirriam-Webster online dictionary:

Main Entry: rac·ism
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

Main Entry: 1prej·u·dice
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'pre-j&-d&s
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment -- more at JUDICIAL
1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights ; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

I'm afraid I still don't see how using a race to clarify someone's identity is seen as racist or prejudiced. I will say, however, if someone used a nationality or race as a slur in any way, then of course it is offensive and should not continue.

As to the suggestion that calling someone 'the fat chick' or 'the gimp in so and so's class' is in the same spectrum, those terms are derogatory and offensive from the start. I suppose it is all in a person's intentions and that is where I believe the problem began; assumption of intent.

It is entirely possible that the Indian roommate (and yes, the race was previously used as a clarifying description), knew that whoever the message was for knew 'the white guy' was named Felix and needed no further prompting. It's hard to say because we don't know. I will say she was most likely put on the defensive from the get go by being accused of something that people find utterly offensive and thus reacted as she did. Only she could answer that, however.

The definitions are pretty clear and I truly can't agree that using a race as a description is within either boundary unless used, as I said, as a slur. I would not be offended personally if someone described me by my race. I really don't understand why mentioning someone's race is seen on the same level as demeaning and degrading name calling.

I'm sorry about the post length, it's just something I've been thinking about for a while now. It's good to know other people's opinions too.

[jayel]

I am in the camp of I use race as a descriptor in certain situations, when it will help accurately explain to someone who I am talking about. If we are at the grocery store, for instance, I would not say "the black cashier", because there are so many cashiers it would be easier to say "checkout 12" or whatever. But, if I am at a party where only one or two guests are black, it would be easier to tell someone "the black girl with the blue dress was in my biology class last year" rather than saying, "the girl in the blue dress, with brown hair, brown eyes, standing by the punch bowl," etc.

She decided to use race instead of other descriptors (your hair color, your build, your eye color, etc) to single you out. While this is a generality, not a lot of "mexicans" have blond hair or blue eyes. Assuming these apply to you, they could have been used, rather than "the white girl in Mrs. Redd's class."

To me, what you are suggesting is just silly, because it's like tip-toeing around the elephant in the room. Sure, you could describe the 'white' girl as the 'blond' girl, or the 'blue eyed' girl, but seriously, why bother? The fact that she is white is the most obvious and notable difference between her and her classmates, and therefore will garner recognition more quickly than beating around the bush with other, more minor descriptions. Why hint around, hoping someone will catch on, when you could just say what you mean and be done with it. That's trying too hard to prove you're not racist, imo.

What if you were obese? Would you find it appropriate for her to call you "that fat chick in Mrs. Redd's class"? Or were missing a limb, "that gimp in Mrs. Redd's class"?

Using this logic, you are implying that calling someone black or white or mexican or whatever, is just as bad as calling them fat or crippled. One is derogatory, one is a factual statement. This type of thinking further stresses that certain races are thought of as 'bad', more so than just acknowledging the race for reference and being done with it.

As far as your girlfriend's roommate, she probably used descriptors that stood out the most to her, without realizing how it would sound, or that it would be unnecessary to use them with you. I doubt she had any racist intent, and personally it would have pissed me off if someone had implied such by questioning me like you did her. That sort of thing is the reason people are on pins and needles these days, trying so hard not to accidentally offend someone. On the other hand, I guess I would have been better able to explain myself than she was.

[Zyanya]

While I don't find them to be intentionally racist (IE your friends reference to you), it is indicative of a society based in racism.

Actually, the fact that you think the descriptor 'white' is the equivalent of the descriptor 'fat chick' says a lot more about you than it does about the person who originally used the term 'white'.

[MystyGlyttyr]

I never really thought of references to race in a story as anything other than an adjective, myself. White girl = girl who's skin is white, black guy = guy who's skin is black. Okay. Got it. Next paragraph.

To me, acknowledging someone's race isn't the same as making a big deal out of their race. It's just one more characteristic, on the same list as "tall" or "annoying" or "gang-banger" or what-have-you. All it does for me is form a more complete mental image. And, and this is my opinion, assuming that just because someone makes note of a race automatically = racist is just kind of stupid. I mean, it's a very rare person who is well and truly "colorblind". I mean, if you see someone, it's one of or THE first thing you might notice about them. But there's a big difference between just noticing "this person is ______" and assuming "Because this person is ______, then they _____."

Maybe being faceblind as it turns out I am makes it different, though. If I try to just go by a person's face, I'll mix up black, white, male, female, etc. There were people I went to school with for YEARS who I could never tell apart just by their faces, I had to use in one case, their haircuts, and in another case, their eye colors, even though apparently neither pair looked anything alike to anyone else. I HAVE to take stock of everything about them, and if it's a couple of females with similar clothes and hairstyles and heights and weights and whatever else, the only thing I have left to use is skin tone.

(And if THAT'S the same...well, then I'm fucked, as a pair of black women with identical hair cuts and wearing the same dark pink business suits found out about a month ago here at the paper. On the other hand, my mixing up their business had no negative effects on either AND introduced them to one another and has made them become good friends...silver lining, LOL.)