Racial insinuation?

[Slytovhand]

Which is why both ebonyknight and I agree that calling an Indian guy "Indian" is not necessarily malicious or judgmental, and therefore not racist in the colloquial meaning of the term. Here's a quote from EK:



Institutional racism is a difficult concept to grasp for many of us, which is partly why its discussion has been relegated to academic circles instead of taking its rightful place in public discourse. The word "racism" is so loaded that it can be difficult to discuss these concepts openly without one or both parties thinking they are being called names.



I have never asserted otherwise.

Weeelllll...... I was thinking about this today (when I should have been sleeping... dangnabit!!), and 3 things came to mind...

1 - which of the following (if any) is a racist/racism comment?

a - Chinese food
b - Russian Culture
c - Greek and Roman Architecture
d - a Black person
e - 6'8" Caucasian male, medium build, long blonde hair


2 - This one I do take an issue with when I think about it, though it falls a bit more under the 'wilfull ignorance' thread...

"I hate chinese food" (or similar). Racist - because it categorises every bit of food traditional to 'China' (given the spread of time and land that the term has been used to describe) into one simple bucket (and it ain't a 13 piece bucket either... ). 'Traditional' chinese food ranges from steamed rice, to spicy Mongolian Lamb, to hot and spicy Szechaun, to Peking Duck, to... and that's just the names given to them in English...

So it infuriates me no end to hear that sort of comment... just like 'I don't like Indian food - it's too hot for me'... Lassi isn't hot! Kulfi isn't hot (mmmmm.... kulfi....<drool>), etc, and I personally love a good yellow curry - incredibly mild!!!

/rant


3 - Back to the main agenda...

In any good debate, we need to be clear that we are talking about the same thing, and are using the same defintions. A couple of definitions were pasted for 'racism/racist'. Boozy and EK seem to be using the term (especially in 'institutionalised racism') in a way that does not fit those definitions.

Is there a particular issue you have with those definitions that you'd like to put forth?


Slyt

[AFPheonix]

My concern is that I don't think this case would necessarily fit into institutional racism at all. We don't know that the OP based her knowledge that the guy was from India based only on skin color. He could have offered other clues, such as dress, accent, and perhaps a credit card with a last name.
Hell, he could have also done the "Back in India we do things such and such a way".

So still to me, the mere fact that the OP referred to the customer as Indian still does not rate as racism of any kind, especially since she did not assign any values to his ethnicity, only to his own, unique personality.

[Boozy]

That's a good point - we don't know enough about this story to make a judgment about that either way.

[Zyanya]

Institutional racism can be defined as a group of societal patterns that have the net effect of creating negative conditions for a certain racial or ethnic group. It differs greatly from individual racism in it's intent; institutional racism is more of a product of inertia than malice.

I shall also give it another try.

Part of institutional racism is believing each time race is mentioned, there is a racist motivation for it.


So please stop with the double standards. Your getting offended because someone's ethnicity was mentioned is on the same level of 'racist' that assuming someone from India only eats spicy food is.

[Zyanya]

Give me a break. Zyan said I called them racist and that was the entire basis for Zyan's getting bent out of shape. I never did, they couldn't quote me and you acknowledged that.

Perhaps someday, you'll actually read my posts and get the point.

But I won't hold my breath.

[Boozy]

Your getting offended because someone's ethnicity was mentioned is on the same level of 'racist' that assuming someone from India only eats spicy food is.

I wasn't offended that race was mentioned in this story. I never said I was. Where are you getting this from?

[Zyanya]

I wasn't offended that race was mentioned in this story. I never said I was. Where are you getting this from?

See my last post.

[the_std]

What's the point of a debate forum if all there is going to be is cryptic phrases and blaming?

[Zyanya]

What's the point of a debate forum if all there is going to be is cryptic phrases and blaming?

Can't have a debate if one side won't actually address the point.

[Slytovhand]

Yeah - it's getting a bit... derailed... talking more about what he said/she said and all...

I asked Boozy to do a clarification, cos I didn't see the difference in the argument. She cleared it up (very nicely, thank you ), though I still saw it didn't quite answer my thoughts (but that's what debating is all about).

So... I'd suggest, please - specific quotes, and how that is meant to mean, and all that sort of stuff... please?

Oh.. and Boozy/EK...

3 - Back to the main agenda...

In any good debate, we need to be clear that we are talking about the same thing, and are using the same defintions. A couple of definitions were pasted for 'racism/racist'. Boozy and EK seem to be using the term (especially in 'institutionalised racism') in a way that does not fit those definitions.

Is there a particular issue you have with those definitions that you'd like to put forth?

You said "not racist in the colloquial meaning of the term", but it's still a form of 'institutionalised racism'...

So... what's the other meaning? The strict definition doesn't fit, nor the colloquial...


Slyt

[jayel]

I actually had a dream about this thread last night. I wanted to laugh at myself when I woke up. I was walking down the street and an Asian family was coming up behind me. Apparently there were water puddles on the ground, because I heard the father say to his daughters, "stop splashing that white girl." At this I thought about this thread, laughed , and turned around to speak to the father. I told him that I couldn't help but overhear what he'd said, and he started apologizing that he hadn't meant anything by it. I told him not to worry, that I wasn't mad, explained this debate we'd been having and proceeded to discuss the whole issue with him.

No, I didn't eat anything wierd last night. I didn't even look at this thread yesterday.

Anyway, back OT, I have one last thought. Is it possible that acknowledging race makes some people uncomfortable simply because it drives home the point that you are different? In a room full of people of the same race, if someone points you out as the black/white/Asian/ Mexican, aren't they in essence saying "The one who's not like us?"


I'm still not seeing it as necessarily a bad thing, or racism, but maybe this would make some people uncomfortable. We have to be careful not to make it out o be a bigger deal than it is, though, and slapping a 'racism' label on it is definitely over the top. Not that this would be the case for every situation or person, but it's just a thought.

[DesignFox]

So if you had people coming up to you ever day and mislabeling your culture, you'd take the time to calmly and rationally talk about your actual heritage to every single one of them? I don't know if you meant that to be condescending or not, but you seem to be implying that anyone who gets upset over anything as silly as this is being excessively immature, and having seen first-hand a fraction of the things my partner deals with, I find that offensive.

Well. It certainly wasn't meant as an insult.

Proof of why some of us tip toe around and don't know what to say or do for fear of offending people.

Like Pedersen, I have a last name that some people have difficulty spelling or pronouncing. Like he said, I can get mad about it, and yell and kick and scream and be offended. OR I can make the choice to calmly correct the person. OR I can just ignore it. Because really, is it THAT big a deal?

Unless I walk up to someone and call them a nasty name and tell them I hate them because of their race, I really don't see what they have to be upset about.

That's the only point I was making. It wasn't meant to be condescending.

But frankly, YES. I think if someone gets upset over being called "Chinese" when they happen to be "Korean" (for example) then they are a bit silly. You can be offended if you want, although I'm very sorry that you feel that way.

I just think there are bigger things in the world to be worried about. Being mis-labeled isn't one of them. Again, unless someone comes and punches you in the face over your race or mistaken ethnicity, I really don't think it's worth getting in a froth over.

You could describe me a lot of different ways- I don't get ANGRY when people think I'm of one background over another. I correct them. Or I let it go. Life's too short.

[AFPheonix]

Actually, I could kind of understand why people would be unhappy if you just assumed what heritage they had, especially if you were really stupid about it. (Example: Hurr! I shore like yer poo-poo platters you people make, hyuk!)
It's similar to the racism that that "Black People Like Me!" website lampoons. http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

[Boozy]

It's similar to the racism that that "Black People Like Me!" website lampoons. http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

Hilarious - for the most part.

I especially enjoyed the letter page.

[Lace Neil Singer]

All the time I've been online, there have been a few people who, due to the fact that I post under a couple of masculine sounding names (The Anti-Crisst and SS Lt Frehley) and like a lot of American bands, have mistaken me for an American guy. Shock horror! Should I be offended? In fact, there are people who on CS have mistaken me for a guy! I must immediately demand a letter of apology!

Seriously tho I couldn't care less. I also have a first name that can be misspelt; I just correct people. Life's too short to burst a blood vessel at such trivial matters. Especially since there are people being stoned, beaten, raped, tortured and murdered for the colour of their skin, so I really don't see why people would waste time being offended just cuz they're Mexican and get called Spanish.