Racial insinuation?

[ebonyknight]

Can't get more blatant, than that!

[AFPheonix]

If you were Pakistani and mistaken for an Indian, you might be pissed. If you were Chinese and mistaken for Japanese, you might also be pissed.

I can see a few instances where just assuming someone's heritage could get you a look of displeasure in the least.

[Zyanya]

If you were Pakistani and mistaken for an Indian, you might be pissed.

If you were Pakistani and I mistakenly thought you were Indian and so made certain that I ordered at least one pizza that had neither pork nor beef on it, would you still be pissed?

[the_std]

If you were Pakistani and I mistakenly thought you were Indian and so made certain that I ordered at least one pizza that had neither pork nor beef on it, would you still be pissed?

... Where the heck did that scenario come from? It doesn't have much of anything to do with the debate that's going on. And that is not what AFP said.

[DesignFox]

Again. If you mistake someone's identity and say or do something insulting, I can certainly understand being offended- that person was trying to offend you based on your ethnicity. And that is WRONG.

But if someone innocently describes a person as "the Chinese gentleman" and he just happens to be Japanese, what is the big deal?

I think Zyanya's point was that she doesn't know the Pakistani guy is Pakistani...she mistakenly thought he was Indian- so she placed the order for pizza and was sure not to put beef or pork on it, as according to Hindu religion, those animals are not to be eaten. It was just a supposed scenario in which incorrectly labeling someone may have happened out of courtesy and respect, not in an effort to insult.

I, personally, try not to use descriptors of specific countries because they are far too specific and may be incorrect. But someone else may not have that much forethought to be broad in their description.

Not everyone who uses race as a descriptor is trying to be insulting.

I think the people who get so bent out of shape because they are accidentally mislabled are just as bad as the racists who PURPOSELY use race or ethnicity as an insult.

It makes regular people afraid to say or do anything at all.

[AFPheonix]

My point is, that because those particular groups of people have historically had emnity towards each other, that they would probably be offended if you referred to them as the wrong nationality/ethnicity.

Yes, I agree that mentioning someone's race/nationality/ethnicity does not in and of itself indicate racism, but to be ignorant and offend someone with your silly remarks, regardless of how harmless you intended them to be, can be racist. Again, Black People Love Us was an illustration of my point.

[anriana]

Again. If you mistake someone's identity and say or do something insulting, I can certainly understand being offended- that person was trying to offend you based on your ethnicity. And that is WRONG.

but it's only wrong if someone else says it's okay for you to find insulting - otherwise being offended is just immature!

But if someone innocently describes a person as "the Chinese gentleman" and he just happens to be Japanese, what is the big deal?

If they really must describe people that way and can't differentiate between people of different nationalities, why not just say "the Asian person?"

I think Zyanya's point was that she doesn't know the Pakistani guy is Pakistani...she mistakenly thought he was Indian- so she placed the order for pizza and was sure not to put beef or pork on it, as according to Hindu religion, those animals are not to be eaten. It was just a supposed scenario in which incorrectly labeling someone may have happened out of courtesy and respect, not in an effort to insult.

The Hindu religion doesn't prohibit eating pork - many Hindus are vegetarian due to ahimsa/beliefs on reincarnation/other things, but there is no specific prohibition against pork like for Muslims/Jews. If I was Pakastani and someone came up to me and said "I made sure not to get pork or beef on one of the pizzas because I know you people don't eat that" I'd just be confused. As far as being respectful/courteous, how about actually asking the person if they have specific dietary restrictions instead of just assuming their nationality, religion, and what they eat based on their outward appearance?

I, personally, try not to use descriptors of specific countries because they are far too specific and may be incorrect. But someone else may not have that much forethought to be broad in their description.

Not everyone who uses race as a descriptor is trying to be insulting.

I think the people who get so bent out of shape because they are accidentally mislabled are just as bad as the racists who PURPOSELY use race or ethnicity as an insult.

It makes regular people afraid to say or do anything at all.

My last name is Schneider. I live in a town with a major freeway called the Snydor. No one ever spells my last name correctly, but that is nothing like having your race constantly misidentified. No one treats me differently because they can't spell my very white, very European name, yet people Other my boyfriend all the time when they see him, because he does not look white or European. So whoever posted that, you're right, I don't get the point of you mentioning that as I don't see how having to spell out a name from a foreign language to people and being treated as an outsider are related.

As I mentioned upthread, my partner is completely American. He's born here, he only speaks English, he's never left the country, he likes baseball and applie pie, etc, etc, yet people treat him completely different because he doesn't "look American." If I go for a walk, I might get a comment or two on my (electric blue) hair, if we go for a walk, we get comments on the earthquake in China (before that it was the tsunami) or about famous Asian celebrities. People ask him to teach them phrases in his language, they ask him how long he's been here, they ask him where he's from, they ask him how he learned to speak English so well, etc, all things that are "fairly innocent" yet also insulting (or is it immature and just as bad a skinhead to be insulted by those?)

Is "you'll know him, the Asian guy" the same as "What's up Jackie Chan/wetback/yellow fellow/other clearly racist comments?" No. Do they both serve to identify him as something other than normal and white? Yes. He isn't Chinese/Latino/Pacific Islander, he is freaking American. Referring to someone by their race is one small piece of Othering. Sometimes it is meant innocently or respectfully, but it is still a piece and impossible for people who actually deal with it to separate from all the other pieces. So no, when my partner is dealing with yet another instance of being Othered, I won't think he is being just as bad as the person who called him a chink, or that he is being incredibly immature.

And if you honestly think that being "afraid to say or do anything at all" in, I'm assuming, matters of racial interaction is the same as being harassed and intimidated on a daily basis due to the color of your skin, then all I can really say is I hope your next life is spent as a minority in Kentucky.

[Boozy]

The most notable difference between Pakistan and India isn't even race; it's religion. Pakistan is almost entirely Muslim, whereas the majority of India is Hindu.

Only 80% Indians are Hindu, so there's still about a 1 in 5 chance that an Indian person offered a vegetarian pizza might ask "Where's the beef?"

I'd suggest anyone hosting a multi-ethnic pizza party should simply ask their guests if they have any dietary restrictions, rather than jumping to conclusions based on the colour of their skin.

[Rapscallion]

Hindus consider cows to be sacred - omnivorous Hindus don't eat beef.

Rapscallion

[DesignFox]

I'd suggest anyone hosting a multi-ethnic pizza party should simply ask their guests if they have any dietary restrictions, rather than jumping to conclusions based on the colour of their skin.

Generally, I agree with that.

But if you have no idea, and you don't know the person well enough to ask, is it a bad thing that you assumed they might want or need something different? As long as you don't go up to the person and say something stupid like, "I know you people don't eat meat, so here ya go!" I don't think it's a bad thing. There's a difference between tact...and...rudeness.

And, maybe Anriana didn't catch it, but as I said, if I wasn't sure of someone's background, I WOULD describe them as Asian (for example). I wouldn't pick a country, because I have no idea.

I also wouldn't assume that the person was fresh off the boat...or any other assumptions that were mentioned. While I think those assumptions would be annoying, I would think a brief, "I wouldn't know, seeing as I've lived in America all my life" would be enough to shame the other person into silence. Those questions are beyond presumptious.

Maybe the "othering" would stop if we got rid of things like, Affirmative Action. If we did away with our "Irish pride" "Italian Pride" "Black history months" etc. If we're all AMERICAN, then why do we all celebrate our different hertiages? Or is it ok as long as no white person points out the differences?

Just saying. That seems to be the attitude. If someone DARES describe your ethnicity or race, it's "othering." But if the Mexicans come out and dance and have a party, that's ok. They are celebrating their "other-ness" but it's not ok to point it out when describing someone...hmm. Interesting. We can have parades celebrating Italians....but don't dare "other" them by describing them as Italian.

Am I making my point?

Why is OK sometimes, and not others? Why does it matter so much how I describe a person, so long as I'm not using it in an insulting matter?

[DesignFox]

And if you honestly think that being "afraid to say or do anything at all" in, I'm assuming, matters of racial interaction is the same as being harassed and intimidated on a daily basis due to the color of your skin, then all I can really say is I hope your next life is spent as a minority in Kentucky.

I didn't really mean that it was the "same." But carrying a torch and a chip on your shoulder doesn't help matters. Not all people are horrible racists out to lynch people who are different from them. Attacking someone for a slight stupid assumption is just very unfair. Especially if they really didn't mean anything by it.

And sorry- if you're different. You're different. Not bad. Not Other. Not outside. Just different. Why do Americans find the need to simultaneously celebrate and become offended by their differences?

[Slytovhand]

Firstly... India and Pakistan would also have a large-ish population of Buddhists and Christians.. not to mention animistic religions... I'm an Aussie, and live in a country with a very high christian population... I'd be a pissed if it was just assumed that I was as well... (but that's a little different anyway... just mentioning...)

Secondly... a few years ago (actually - quite a while back...) we had football (soccer) teams named after and supported by, various immigrant nationalities .. such as Sydney Croatia. The government stepped in (via our head sporting body for the soccer) and ruled that all references to other nations be removed. Why? Cos of the amount of 'patriotic' violence that was going on. The Croats would be having big punch-ups with the Yugoslavs every single damn time they had a match. Even in the smaller leagues - get 2 parents together and it'd be on! We are a damn mulit-cultural society... please leave your baggage at the border!

Now.. those 2 countries are so damn close together that it wouldn't be hard to mis-place their ethnicity. So... I call a Croat a Slav - and I'd be in for it... and that's crap.

Part of the whole 'racist' stuff is because people a) want to hang onto the bad stuff, and b) want to hang on to a sense of 'security' about themselves. Differentiating between people is part of that.. and is often quite stupid (as per Anriana's posts... we had an add down here about coffee. There's a big tall dark-black skinned person in the aisle looking at coffee. White girl goes over and wants to chat him up, and opens with a comment about 'I like my coffee a bit exotic - like where you're from"... "What?.. Whopshire?" in a slightly lispy English accent.

Tell me.. how do you Americans take to being called Canadians (and vice versa)? How do us Aussies take to being called Kiwi's? (other than being disgusted cos the accent is so damn different!!!) Or, for that matter - English?? (yeah - right.. English and Australians sound exactly the same!!).

And another thing that just came to mind.. a few years ago, a leading member of the ?Black Panthers came over here trying to get the aboriginal population to push for rights and all, seeing as they were both 'black'... went down like a ton of bricks by pretty much all concerned. Why? Cos of the completely different historical perspectives (he was basically told to go back home...).

Which, getting to my idealism... we are all people, all from different 'races' and background. Be proud of your Irish heritage (and if someone calls you a Scott or Pom... just deal with it.. sort of nicely ). It does't matter what your skin colour is, nor your name, nor your ancestry.. try being just a human, and treat everyone else as 'just a human' as well.. (except for the nasty criminals.. oh, and politicians... )


Slyt

[jayel]

Do they both serve to identify him as something other than normal and white?

You are the first person in this thread I've seen equate 'normal' with 'white'.

That came from you, not me. Kind of telling.

[DesignFox]

slyt- I don't think people would mix up us Americans with Canadians...but, you know what, if someone did. so be it. I'd shrug it off.

It's just not important to me what a complete stranger makes of me. Unless of course, they are punching me in the face...then I'd have something to say about it.

We are all human. We are all different. If someone points it out, big whoop-de-do. As long as they are not being derogatory, it's not a big deal.

Part of the reason racial tensions still exist is not just because of the true racists, but because of the few vocal people who can't let it go.

And you know...some of the stuff...I thought about it. Anriana, did you ever think that some of those people who ask your BF annoying questions are really just trying to make conversation? Maybe they aren't trying so much to segragate him out as they are just trying to get to understand or know him better. Like I said, if he tells them he's American, plain and simple, they should stop with the crap...but...I mean...honestly? I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm honestly stating what some people might be thinking.

I personally, have dealt with people of multiple ethnicities, backgrounds, race, generations long being in America and people fresh off the boat. Maybe it's different here. But some other places, maybe the "normal white (your words)" people aren't used to seeing anyone that is different. Maybe it is just their way of trying to be friendly...?

[anriana]

Just saying. That seems to be the attitude. If someone DARES describe your ethnicity or race, it's "othering." But if the Mexicans come out and dance and have a party, that's ok. They are celebrating their "other-ness" but it's not ok to point it out when describing someone...hmm. Interesting. We can have parades celebrating Italians....but don't dare "other" them by describing them as Italian.

Because those Mexicans/Italians are choosing to celebrate their culture. Not everyone of a different ethnicity chooses to do so. Sorry, sometimes you have to treat people of different races as individual people and not just one large group of others who should all be treated exactly the same.

You are the first person in this thread I've seen equate 'normal' with 'white'.

That came from you, not me. Kind of telling.

Oh dear you've figured out my secret. I'm clearly completely racist and not at all referring to the attitudes of the people who Other my partner.