Racial insinuation?

[Pedersen]

I didn't mean that Zyanya was the only one doing it and I'm sorry if I came off that way.

And I didn't mean to even imply you were saying that. If I did, I apologize.

That post of mine has been brewing in my head for days. Probably a week or so.

I've seen a few of these threads lately, and they are rapidly turning into something that closes my mind to the viewpoint they are trying to promote. I read them, and simply find material to reinforce those closing of my mind to these viewpoints.

I hope they're reading, and actually care about the effect of their message, I really do.

[DesignFox]

I'm trying very hard not to get on the defensive, and not to attack anybody.

Pedersen, I think you put the point well.

[Slytovhand]

Pedersen.. I'm offended ...






You know, that's just the reason I like debating you on here... you stick to the topic

Even if it starts to get a bit personal, it can still be brought back to 'the bigger issue' -it's not about 'me and you' (even when you are wrong ), but about 'this is how it will affect me'..."me" being defined as 'people in my situation'.

I've seen a few quotes being thrown around, and thus it's turned into 'me vs you' and quite personal.

some of the examples used are personal - but also valid, but those valid points (as Ped was pointing out) get lost in the argument cos it turns into "You're doing this to me"... which really does destroy the argument. (how about ye olde 'When I hear this, I think/feel...")



STD... yeah - that post did seem to be directed only at Zyanya... just saying (though I'm presuming it's only cos hers was the post immediately before yours..)


Foxy...

slyt- I don't think people would mix up us Americans with Canadians...but, you know what, if someone did. so be it. I'd shrug it off.

Hahaha... sorry... Nope, I still can't pick your accents.. maybe about 1 in 20 times I'll get it right (and that's only cos I think to myself.."hmm - not obviously New York, not obviously deep south, not obviously anything.. sounds more like my friend in Ohio - I'll go for Canadian"). But then, I've only been around a Canadian briefly in my life... and not around Americans for long at all...

But.. nationality differences like that are pretty insignificant in my book!There's only a friendly rivalry.. some countries still hate each other (and that sucks!)


Oh - as for the pizza scenario... personally - why wouldn't you get vegetarian anyway? After all, how many people in our countries are veggies without a nationality or religious reason? Unless it's a group of friends who all know each other, that's usually what we do here...cover all bases.


Slyt

[AFPheonix]

Yes, it is. He said that mistaking a Pakistani for an Indian is insulting. I demonstrated that in many cases, no, it is not.

The problem is that those of you talking about 'well, it's racist' are incorrectly and insultingly assuming any racial mix up is an event like saying 'all those India people are horrible drivers' when referencing a man from Pakistan. Of course that is insulting.

I'm a she, actually
I don't think we're quite on the same page. I'm talking about situations that Ariana's SO encounters: dingleberries who walk up to him and just assume something about him based on the color of his skin. I know quite a few Indians and Pakistanis who would be horrified if I was rude enough to come up and start assuming they're from the other country just offhand. Not just people with that heritage, but first generation immigrants.
Make more sense now?
I'm just advocating for plain old manners, common sense and critical thinking. That's it. If you'll recall, I agreed that the OP of this particular thread was not a case of racism, either individual or institutional.

[anriana]

You are doing the same thing, unless you can show us where some of these people who offended you by guessing at your s.o.'s race actually said he was something other than 'normal and white'.

Okay, let me upload the audio recorder I carry around with me at all times. Or you could always go to lj.com/ruralkybigotsspeak.

And Othering, a phrase I have been using this entire thread, means I am X, X is normal, you are Y, Y is not normal.

I'm not going to go out of my way to make 'special' friends if I have to walk on eggshells all the time trying not to piss them off.

And what exactly do you mean by "'special' friends?"

Anriana, did you ever think that some of those people who ask your BF annoying questions are really just trying to make conversation? Maybe they aren't trying so much to segragate him out as they are just trying to get to understand or know him better. Like I said, if he tells them he's American, plain and simple, they should stop with the crap...but...I mean...honestly? I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm honestly stating what some people might be thinking.

I personally, have dealt with people of multiple ethnicities, backgrounds, race, generations long being in America and people fresh off the boat. Maybe it's different here. But some other places, maybe the "normal white (your words)" people aren't used to seeing anyone that is different. Maybe it is just their way of trying to be friendly...?

Treating someone differently because of their race is one small piece of Othering. Sometimes it is meant innocently or respectfully, but it is still a piece. It is not okay to walk up to strangers and ask "How long you been in America, son?" even if you mean it in a friendly way.

[DesignFox]

Foxy...

Hahaha... sorry... Nope, I still can't pick your accents.. <snip> But then, I've only been around a Canadian briefly in my life... and not around Americans for long at all...

<snip>

Oh - as for the pizza scenario... personally - why wouldn't you get vegetarian anyway? After all, how many people in our countries are veggies without a nationality or religious reason? Unless it's a group of friends who all know each other, that's usually what we do here...cover all bases.


Slyt

I've only met Canadians once. Of course, they had a distinct accent, and ended all their phrases in "eh?" BF and I were in Hawaii and met the couple at a restaurant and started chatting...and that's how we found out where they were from. And yes, we asked them questions about Canadaland.

As for the pizza...
I would order vegetarian, anyway. But, I could see other people's thought processes being different from mine.

I don't assume people are racist. I give them the benefit of the doubt for trying to be courteous. Which, in the scenario presented, it seemed the person would have their heart in the right place.

Anriana, I guess I just don't understand Kentuckians. I've never in my life seen someone go up to another person and just spout off an inquiry like that. Most people don't ask those questions unless they are in conversation with the person, and detect a very strong accent or have some tip-off that the person celebrates a different religion or culture (and even WANTS to talk about it). I guess diversity isn't a big thing down there, and most people don't know how to handle it.

I would think that it would help your cause more if you were courteous to people rather than instantly crying racism in response, though. Or maybe you are courteous and just spouting your frustration here. I don't know the situation. But instantly getting defensive puts people off and probably doesn't help them think of your SO as anything than "other" which is exactly what you are trying to avoid.

It sucks to deal with ignorance, but ignorance can be be resolved...you can't fix the truly stupid or the racists who refuse to change- but they won't be around forever, and their ideas ARE dying- albeit painfully slow in some places.

Hey just a thought! You can come to New Jersey. With the exception of a few parts, we're pretty diverse, here. No one would glance sideways either at your blue hair, or your SO... (kidding)

[Boozy]

Hahaha... sorry... Nope, I still can't pick your accents.. maybe about 1 in 20 times I'll get it right .

Considering that something like 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border, most of us can't pinpoint nationality based on speech either. There's a Maritime accent (this is where the "eh" stereotype comes from), and obviously a Quebecois (French) accent, but other than that, we mostly sound like northern Americans.

I can usually tell an American from a Canadian within a few minutes of meeting them, but its based on their clothing and behaviour (not bad, just different) more than their voice.

[Greenday]

I'm a she, actually

Pwned!

Anyway, this pissing match definitely killed a good hour or two to catch up on.

I think my feelings match what DesignFox has been saying. When people tell a story and don't mention race, I automatically picture white people in my head. The majority of the people I've met in my life are white, that's why I'd assume that. Giving a general idea of the person's race gives me a more accurate idea of who is involved.

Assuming that using white, black, asian to describe somebody is racist, well, that's just not always true. They are adjectives. Nothing more. If you start using real racist terms to describe people, then there is a problem. But start off a sentence with "This white guy I work with..." does not automatically equal racist.

Colorblind society is completely different to physically blind society. Colorblind society just means we treat each other the same regardless of color.

More to come, after lunch break.

[jayel]

And what exactly do you mean by "'special' friends?"

People who are different than me. I'll be honest, we're not all that diverse down here. And yes, I meant it sarcastically.

Treating someone differently because of their race is one small piece of Othering.

I'll assume you mean until they start asking for special treatment. Not that we ever hear about those kind of stories.

[powerboy]

I never really thought of references to race in a story as anything other than an adjective, myself. White girl = girl who's skin is white, black guy = guy who's skin is black. Okay. Got it. Next paragraph.

I do the samething.

[Slytovhand]

I was thinking about starting a new post in Pop Culture, but decided this goes in quite nicely here...

I'm watching Stargate SG1 (Atlantis, as it happens).

Now - other than the fact that everyone speaks fluent American - regardless of what ever planet they venture to (and that's even in another galaxy!!!), the main players of those races they meet up with have a large tendency to be white (unlike in SG1 normal... where they have a stack of black actors... called Jafaa for the most part!)

Anyway, I had my goat raised in watching an episode. They get to a planet which is fairly simple (personally, I thought Polynesian, but similar to Native American...), but the head priest dude was LILY WHITE!!! Apparently, no other people had been to that planet, and they were the only damn people on that entire planet.. yet the priest (who was the 'head' of the people) what ghostly white... in a group of people who were not....


I think I get a bit more of the 'institutionalised racism' from that alone!


Slyt

[Zyanya]

I know quite a few Indians and Pakistanis who would be horrified if I was rude enough to come up and start assuming they're from the other country just offhand.

And I've known ones that couldn't care less.

The problem with racism is that it is often subjective. A Jewish friend of mine asked my husband what his favorite food was, pork and shrimp wontons, often served with a butter dip, and with mock horror referred to them as 'Jew repellent'. The name stuck as kind of an in joke amongst our group. Nothing racist is meant by it at all, just friends poking fun at each other.

Should I use the same term to someone outside our group, then yes, it could be taken as very racist (or religion-ist, if you prefer).

Make more sense now?

Yes and no. The thing I have been objecting to from the beginning is the insinuation that noticing race in the first place is racist. It isn't. Making negative judgments based on race is racist.

Assuming someone is from one country to the east of where they are actually from is what is known as an 'honest mistake', not an attempt at racism.

I'm a she, actually

And thank you for proving my point. The other person I know who uses 'Phoenix' in their handle is male, so I assumed you were as well. Nothing negative meant by it, but later, if I was telling the story, I might say, 'so this woman called Phoenix said', without intending anything sexist by using the term 'woman'. It's just a descriptive term.

[Zyanya]

Treating someone differently because of their race is one small piece of Othering. Sometimes it is meant innocently or respectfully, but it is still a piece.

So, if I know that my friend is from India, should I still only have only beef dishes at the barbecue? I probably would if she wasn't coming, so why should I change just because she is. That is treating her differently after all. Wouldn't want her to feel I was 'othering' her at all.


Or we could, you know, acknowledge that people are different in many ways and all deserve to be treated with respect, even if that means acknowledging they are different.

[Zyanya]

Anriana, I guess I just don't understand Kentuckians. I've never in my life seen someone go up to another person and just spout off an inquiry like that. Most people don't ask those questions unless they are in conversation with the person, and detect a very strong accent or have some tip-off that the person celebrates a different religion or culture (and even WANTS to talk about it). I guess diversity isn't a big thing down there, and most people don't know how to handle it.

Doesn't happen often in Kentucky either. Granted, I've just visited a few times, but those times have been with 'Other' friends. In three days, there was one occurrence, and it involved someone walking up to an oriental friend and asking her 'do you know where I can find good Chinese food in this city?'

[Boozy]

So, if I know that my friend is from India, should I still only have only beef dishes at the barbecue? I probably would if she wasn't coming, so why should I change just because she is. That is treating her differently after all. Wouldn't want her to feel I was 'othering' her at all.

That would be like offering nothing other than regular soda at a party to which you've invited a known diabetic. Your example has nothing to do with "Othering" and I don't think anriana would claim that it does.

Also, everything starts to break down once we start using examples of religion in a conversation about race. Religion is a choice that can have profound effects on how the adherents live their lives; race is not a choice, and doesn't necessarily have to change the way one lives.