Racial insinuation?

[Zyanya]

She's saying it's rude to assume that someone is of a particular ethnicity because of how they look.

Again, WHY?

Substantiate this claim.

[Greenday]

On a side note, I just wanted to pop in and mention how one of my co-workers has a lot of people ask him if he is of Chinese descent. He's Bolivian...

[AFPheonix]

Again, WHY?

Substantiate this claim.

Why? Because usually the people who are willing to make that assumption and act on it in a socially unbecoming way usually aren't well versed in the nuances between races and ethnicities. It's about stereotyping, which is also rude.

Ok. Let's insert other races and nationalities for giggles. If THIS doesn't get my point across, I'm going to think that you're being deliberately obtuse and I'll wash my hands of this line of conversation.

1) White person with blonde hair and blue eyes is walking down the street. Dumbass walks up, does a Nazi salute, commiserates with the now horrified blonde person about how dirty and awful those jews are in the bank, and asks where the closest german food restaurant is. Blondie decks the dumbass, and mentions he'd have no idea, as he is actually from Britain.

2)Black person walks down the street. Dumbass walks up to him, attempts fist bump, greets him with a "hey, what up my nigga?" and asks where the best place to get fried chicken and chitlins are. Black person shrugs, as he is fresh off the boat from Cuba, and proceeds to deck dumbass for being a twat.

Sorry for the Godwin example.

[Norton]

I know the thread has branched far off from the OP's situation a while ago, but I had a thought about it.

Several people had a problem with someone describing a person's ethnicity in a story told on CS. Race had nothing to do with the anecdote, but the poster included it anyway. Most CS members will only disclose the race of the subject if it comes into play in the actual story.

Yet, the same is not done for other non-relevant descriptors. The following examples are sometimes relevant to the story, but I see little-to-no reaction when they are not.

If someone posts a story where the hair color of the customer was mentioned, no one says "Was it necessary to tell us that?" Same thing with fashion. When someone tells a story about a stupid customer, and mentions that her outfit was revealing, I don't see anyone saying "Why did you describe her outfit? Not all women who dress sexy are stupid". Or if the story is about someone acting entitled, and the poster mentions the customer looked wealthy, rarely will someone jump in and say "You know, not all rich people are snobs, and how do you know for sure he was rich, anyway?". If the story is about a pleasant customer, and the poster mentions he was very short, is the poster "othering" short people? Does anyone suggest that posters refrain from mentioning the gender of the person unless it relates to the story?

Why is there no reaction to these descriptors, yet members get questioned if they mention the ethnicity of the other person/people involved?

I just don't see why the line between offensive and non-offensive on CS is drawn at ethnicity. If the fact that someone's race was pointed out in a story is offensive, shouldn't any descriptor besides "human" also be offensive? Afterall, that's what we all boil down to at our core - human. But then, CS would become quite boring after reading story after story with phrases like "This human came in the store", or "A human tried to shoplift".



(I'm not even going to touch all the other examples of possible racism in this thread. Just wanted to comment on the OP).

[DesignFox]

Norton- it's just because nobody says, "This white guy came in..."

I don't understand how using a descriptor is a bad thing, either. I think people read into the story too much by thinking... "you mentioned the person's race, you must be relating their race to their bad behavior!"

I don't know why, but it seems that's how a lot of people think.

The only time I've seen the "white" people described as such is in conjuction with the word "trash"...and I have to say, the poster got in equal hot water for it. And that is a direct slander against the person...but for some reason, not really considered racist...it's more a slam on their economic background...still, it leaves a clear picture... *shrug*

I know people are touchy on the subject, so unless a customer pulls the race or "I'm rich" or "I'm poor" card, I leave their ethnicity, economic background and general description out of my story.

I dunno. I think it's hard. Like I mentioned before, I'm white. So I tend to just automatically picture white people in my head. I'd assume if I were black, I would just picture black people, unless I was told otherwise. (much like the poster who mentioned white people making Jesus white and black people portraying Jesus as black)

We tend to project characteristics not described as those that are similar to our own. When we are told otherwise, we get a different picture in our heads- some people like extreme details in their stories- they like to picture EVERYTHING. But most of what we talk about doesn't require the spinning of a whole environment or it's characters. Brevity is wit...and most of the stories on CS should be brief and entertaining...or a way for our members to share their frustrations and get through them. To those ends, it isn't really necessary for us to relate every little detail about our customers...but a broad description, to me, isn't insulting and can sometimes be quite funny or relevant.

Not everyone has the mastery of tact...so, I just assume innocence in the remark- unless it's outright racist...i.e. "So this guy was being a total [stereotype]"

[Zyanya]

1) White person with blonde hair and blue eyes is walking down the street. Dumbass walks up, does a Nazi salute, commiserates with the now horrified blonde person about how dirty and awful those jews are in the bank, and asks where the closest german food restaurant is. Blondie decks the dumbass, and mentions he'd have no idea, as he is actually from Britain.

Okay, now let's take the strawman BS out of that scenario to make it similar to the scenario that actually offended Anriana.

1) White person with blond hair and blue eyes is walking down the street. Person walks up and asks, do you know where a good German restaurant is?

2)Black person walks down the street. Dumbass walks up to him, attempts fist bump, greets him with a "hey, what up my nigga?" and asks where the best place to get fried chicken and chitlins are. Black person shrugs, as he is fresh off the boat from Cuba, and proceeds to deck dumbass for being a twat.

Again -

2) Black person walks down the street. Person walks up to him and says 'know any good jazz places around here?'

I like how you had to work and twist the scenarios to actually make them racist though. Kind of proved my point for me.

[Slytovhand]

Actually, I'd say all of those examples display an inherent.... hmmm... maybe 'racism' - definitely the 'institutionalised' version.... it's making a judgement call about someone based solely on looks.

It doesn't need to be the extreme type (like the neo-nazi scenario... besides... blonde hair, blue eyes is German??? Why not Swedish? Dutch? etc??). Black person?? Umm... there's a whole continent I can point at...

So, I'd be annoyed as Anriana has been, if ppl kept coming up to me and making some lame-arse presumption about me based solely on how I look - to them!

But... those scenarios don't actually relate to the OP, nor to describing someone to someone else for ease of identification... (so I'm seeing 3 seperate debates going on in this thread..)

Oh - DF... yes, trust me, you use a different descriptor that doesn't directly relate to the story being told, and yes, you'll see the flack fly... depending on what precise description you use. If there's a descriptor, and there is also a negative connotation to the person in the story, you'll see the fisticuffs..

Slyt

[AFPheonix]

I will admit to adding more silliness to my examples to embellish my point, but my point still stands: assuming that someone is a certain race simply because of the color of their skin, and then proceeding to ask a stupid stereotypical question of them is racist. It's not racist like a KKK member, but it still falls under that umbrella. I did not prove your point, I proved mine. Your inability to see what I'm saying when everyone else clearly is able to is not speaking to my inability to explain myself clearly. I chose an exaggerated example to get the point across.

Slytofhand- you're right, this is not part of the OP. As I've pointed out numerous times, the mere acknowledgement that there are different races and kinds is not racist in and of itself. Poor boorish behavior based on that acknowledgement is.

[Zyanya]

I will admit to adding more silliness to my examples to embellish my point, but my point still stands: assuming that someone is a certain race simply because of the color of their skin, and then proceeding to ask a stupid stereotypical question of them is racist.

Aha! Here we have the point. How is asking someone where a good Chinese restaurant is a 'stupid stereotypical question'?

I chose an exaggerated example to get the point across.

You chose an exaggerated example because that was the only way to make it racist.

As I've pointed out numerous times, the mere acknowledgement that there are different races and kinds is not racist in and of itself. Poor boorish behavior based on that acknowledgement is.

And where is the boorish behavior in some of these examples? Where is the boorish behavior in asking someone what their ethnicity is? In short, where are the negative consequences of asking someone where a Chinese restaurant may be? How is asking someone where a Chinese restaurant is treating them rudely, holding them back, etc....?

I sure as hell don't get offended when someone learns where I am from and asks me where to find a good Mexican restaurant. Why? Because I know not a damn bit of offense is meant and that the question does not come from anything negative.

So in essense, stop being so frickin sensitive, cause just noticing you are a little bit different and wondering if that difference means you know something they don't is NOT meant to be rude and it is NOT racist.

[the_std]

So in essense, stop being so frickin sensitive, cause just noticing you are a little bit different and wondering if that difference means you know something they don't is NOT meant to be rude and it is NOT racist.

But why do people have to stop being so sensitive, as you put it? We are all different, different things offend us, and she can be offended by this if she wants to be. I don't see why anyone should have any say in it.

[AFPheonix]

You still don't get it, do you? WHY would someone assume that someone who LOOKS Chinese is 1)Chinese to start, 2)that because they are that ethnicity, they would automatically be imbued with amazing powers to know what good Chinese restaurants are, or anything else stereotypical of that culture?
Not to mention the fact that what a first gen Chinese immigrant might like would totally put off your standard white guy.
I'm not really being that sensitive, I'm being aware of the fact that stereotyping other people by the color of their skin, no matter how innocuous the question, is BAD.
Sorry that you're not getting it. I'm done explaining. Have a nice day.

[Greenday]

AFPheonix, I just think the idea of someone asking where a specific type of resturant is, is the best example of racism.

Let's put it like this: I go to Chinatown and get hungry. I'm by myself and I've never been there before. I'm just going to ask a random person near me for a suggestion. Since the majority of people in Chinatown are Chinese, odds are I'm going to be asking a Chinese person. Does that make it racist if I ask where I can get some good Chinese food then?

I think that's what Zyanya is getting at. It isn't racism every time. It isn't necessarily racism to ask a person if they are of a certain descent. Sometimes a person just wants to chat and make conversation and a person's ancestory can be a really good topic. Nothing racist about that.

[AFPheonix]

I'm not necessarily saying it's racist every time either. I'm saying that the reasons behind why you picked that particular person to ask can be. If Ariana's friend was the only Asian face in a sea of white and someone came up and asked him, wouldn't that seem a little off to you?

[Greenday]

If the person was right next to him at the time, no. But if the person had to move through a huge crowd just to ask him, then yea, I'd wonder what was up with that.

It just seems like there's been a, "Any mention of race in any context is racist" sort of view in this thread. I hadn't seen any of that sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't until that last reply, which is what Zyanya seems to be going on.

[Rapscallion]

Why is there no reaction to these descriptors, yet members get questioned if they mention the ethnicity of the other person/people involved?

That's fairly easy to explain.

Those other descriptors generally don't cause a problem in society or on CS. There are a few things that do cause genuine offence - politics, religion, race, tipping, and PETA to name but a few. We've had genuinely racist people on the board before, and looking back at their posts shows that they were dropping hints about their preferences in subtle ways - assumedly to try and draw others of potentially similar mindset out of the woodwork. We have to draw a line somewhere, and that's the main reason we drew the line there.

We did relax the rules a while ago about mentioning race. We decided to trial the idea of allowing racial mentions if it adds description to the scene being portrayed. It's under review, and it would be far easier for us to just scrap it as a rule, since it involves so many grey areas where we have to think about whether it added life to the scene or was possibly offensive.

Rapscallion