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The Death Penalty Is Unacceptable

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  • The Death Penalty Is Unacceptable

    Note: This post will be US-centric by it's nature.

    As it stands, there are too many people on death row that have been proven innocent and released. But far worse are those who were never granted their freedom. Either the proof of their innocence came too late or was ignored by those with a duty to review it.

    Our court systems have been proven to be too corrupt, too easily manipulated, and too motivated by a need for convictions rather than a need for justice to be trusted with the ability to cause the ending of another person's life.

    Sometimes we get cases that are so appalling that it's a travesty that more people don't know about them. Such as the case with Cameron Todd Willingham. First he had to suffer outside his family home while his three daughters burned to death, and then, after it was discovered that fire in flashpoint situations will do exactly what happened in his house and that the arson investigator made several telling omissions from his report, those responsible for ensuring that innocent people are not actually put to death (the panel responsible for reviewing death row inmates who looked at the original trial and rubber stamped the verdict - the new report was provided to all of them prior to their decision - and Gov. Rick Perry, who was also furnished with a copy) ignored it all and let him die anyway. The only murderers in his story were those who had a duty to protect him.

    But more often you get grey-area cases. Cases that are full of unsympathetic defendants who are guilty of some crimes related to the case, and where the victim was someone beloved in the community.

    Like Troy Anthony Davis. This is not a pillar of his community. The guy was a thug. But no matter what his other crimes may have been, the trial which convicted him for murder, and at which he was sentenced to death was a joke. Nearly every witness involved has since recanted their testimony under comments of police coercion. One of the only two "witnesses" left holding to their testimony is the man who otherwise would be charged with the murder and who reported him as the shooter. One key piece of evidence had to be dismissed because the police threatened the owner of the house if she didn't let them in. There were more crimes committed in the drive to convict him than he'd committed in the first place. And there is not a single piece of physical evidence that he was the shooter. Not more, or less, than they have on his accuser and co-thug, Sylvester "Redd" Coles, who admits to having had the same type of weapon as Davis and who was with him at the time. There are so many questions, as well as evidence of malfeasance in this case, it's not even funny. And, distressingly, it's far too commonly the case in such trials as this.

    Then there's the case of Joseph Murphy, which is the topic of another thread already. He grew up abused, is borderline mentally retarded (possibly brain damaged from abuse), has been in and out of a dozen mental hospitals, and was originally sentenced at a time where the only options were jail with the possibility of parole or death; life without parole as a sentence wasn't available until four years after sentencing. He doesn't dispute that he is guilty or that it was a terrible thing to do. However, it was for people such as him that the life without parole option was created, and his sentence should have been adjusted long ago. Even the victim's niece is fighting for his sentence to be changed.

    Just yesterday, the Supreme Court intervened and prevented Texas Gov. Rick Perry from putting another notch in his execution belt as they intervened to stay the execution of Duane Buck, who, while guilty, should never been on death row based on the testimony involved. Perry had, as he has every time, denied any clemency, stay, or retrial. Whether Buck will ultimately be sentenced to death fairly will be determined in a hearing that will not be tainted by the possibility of racial prejudice.

    I cannot understand how anyone with any modicum of intelligence, the ability to do even rudimentary research, and an ounce of compassion or moral fiber could ever uphold the death penalty with how flawed it and our court system have proven to be so many times.

    How anyone who has any interest in justice can continue to support such a system is beyond me.

    ^-.-^
    Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

  • #2
    Andara, as many of us realize, the US Justice System isn't about justice, it's about revenge. It's the "He hurt me so fuck him! Let's fuck him up!" A lot of people just don't care about making the world a better place and don't see the irony in murdering murderers.
    Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

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    • #3
      Forget about murdering murderers; they're victimizing victims.

      ^-.-^
      Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

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      • #4
        Is the problem the death sentence or the system that leads to it?

        Rapscallion
        Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
        Reclaiming words is fun!

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        • #5
          As it stands, as a penalty, it's not acceptable. Considering the number of times confessions are still be revealed as having been coerced, we can't even accept those.

          As with many things, the idea itself is fine until you introduce humans into it, and then it all goes to hell. I suspect that were society to be as free of foible as necessary for it to be safe to use as a form of punishment without killing innocents and the undeserving, we won't have much use for it any longer.

          ^-.-^
          Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

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          • #6
            You know, when you really think about the justice system, it's scary. The evidence and testimonies are faulty and there's always risk for corruption. Unless there's actual video evidence, there's no way to be 100% percent sure if the suspect is guilty or not. It's bad enough that an innocent man can be sent to prison, but it's even worse that they could be killed for something they didn't do. I don't want the state to have that kind of power if I'm going to be tried based on faulty evidence.

            I never understood why some are militant about the death penalty. Either way, the murderer is in jail and off the streets. I guess you could make the arguement that it could work in reverse (suspect really is guilty and gets free based on corrupt evidence), but I'd much rather the state not be given the power to potentially kill innocents. That makes it a more even playing field imo.

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            • #7
              I prefer to view it from a financial standpoint. My understanding is that it ultimately costs so much more to put someone to death than it does to incarcerate them for life. Between the appeals, and everything else involved in putting someone to death, it's a pretty big expense for revenge.

              At the same time, I've never had reason to truly want someone dead. If someone hurt my family, I don't know how I'd respond.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Rapscallion View Post
                Is the problem the death sentence or the system that leads to it?

                Rapscallion
                Any system will make mistakes, that's a given fact. A wrongfully convicted person can be released from prison, but can the death sentence be reversed?
                Customer: I need an Apache.
                Gravekeeper: The Tribe or the Gunship?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Andara Bledin View Post
                  As it stands, as a penalty, it's not acceptable. Considering the number of times confessions are still be revealed as having been coerced, we can't even accept those.

                  As with many things, the idea itself is fine until you introduce humans into it, and then it all goes to hell. I suspect that were society to be as free of foible as necessary for it to be safe to use as a form of punishment without killing innocents and the undeserving, we won't have much use for it any longer.

                  ^-.-^
                  The impression I get from this is that you'd be against the death penalty even if it were a guaranteed accurate legal system that sentenced people. Am I correct?

                  I'm not interested in a claim that no system would be correct. I know this. Would you still be against a death penalty if it were guaranteed that the results of court cases were accurate?

                  Rapscallion
                  Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
                  Reclaiming words is fun!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Greenday View Post
                    Andara, as many of us realize, the US Justice System isn't about justice, it's about revenge.
                    Pretty much. Its kind of a catch 22. Only a vindictive legal system would have the death penalty, but that's exactly the kind of legal system that shouldn't have it. When you have a vengeful system, run by people who have to act as vengeful as possible to keep public support for their jobs, and you throw the death penalty into it.....

                    Look at governer Perry there. He is, quite literally, killing people to maintain public support with his base. How fucked up is that? No one should die for your poll numbers, you lumbering miserable fuckstick.

                    The state should not have the power to deny anyone life. Simple as that. Human beings as a society honestly can't be trusted to make that sort of decision.

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                    • #11
                      That seems to me like a completely pointless question. Its a hypothetical that's entirely inconceivable. Its like asking if someone would move to New York if it was in Ireland.
                      "Nam castum esse decet pium poetam
                      ipsum, versiculos nihil necessest"

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Rapscallion View Post
                        Would you still be against a death penalty if it were guaranteed that the results of court cases were accurate?
                        I can't speak for anyone else, but I am against the death penalty for the sole reason that it is wrong to kill people for any reason other than self-defense. "Revenge" isn't an acceptable reason.

                        Originally posted by Gravekeeper View Post
                        Look at governer Perry there. He is, quite literally, killing people to maintain public support with his base. How fucked up is that?
                        Gah! I KNOW! And NO ONE CARES. The general American public is completely ignoring the fact that this man is a goddamned sociopath.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Boozy View Post
                          I can't speak for anyone else, but I am against the death penalty for the sole reason that it is wrong to kill people for any reason other than self-defense. "Revenge" isn't an acceptable reason.
                          Yeah, once they are contained, there is no threat and no need to kill. I also don't buy "it's not revenge, it's punishment" which I often hear. No, the punishment is prison time, most likely life in prison. The only arguements I've heard for wanting the death penalty were based on high emotion, which is never something you want to base life and death decisions on.

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                          • #14
                            The majority argument I hear against the death penalty is also emotional. There are sensible arguments such as the ones in here about Perry being a knob.

                            My position is confused at best. I can see the executions of innocent people and despair. That turns me against the death penalty. Then I see a case of a guy who raped and murdered a granny (or similar - just creating a hypothetical situation) and getting a few years board and lodging. I see circumstances where it would be completely immoral to have the penalty in force, and I see occasions where it's ridiculous not to have it as an option.

                            I'm genuinely interested - if it were not possible for a system to fail and convict the wrong person, are there circumstances in which anyone against the death penalty would accept it?

                            That's the position I find myself in. Tim McVeigh, for example, went out to kill people deliberately. Osama Bin Laden sought the deaths of thousands and orchestrated that from a third-world shithole. Do I grieve for them? In those circumstances, where there is no doubt about their guilt and intent should they not be stopped, I have no issue with the death penalty.

                            When it comes down to cases where there is evidence to say the verdict is in genuine doubt, such as the guy Amnesty is campaigning for now (I admit I can't remember his name, but it's all over facebook), then I'm against. Killing people to keep people supporting your political campaign should be a capital offence. It's murder, pure and simple.

                            Does that make more sense?

                            I'm still interested - those against the death penalty in all cases, do you think the US did wrong in killing Bin Laden, or McVeigh? I'm talking about proven sociopaths, those who would go on to do more if not stopped. Would a jail term satisfy you?

                            I think the term I'm looking for is 'shades of grey'. Some are darker than others.

                            Rapscallion
                            Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
                            Reclaiming words is fun!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Osama's case is different because he actually was a threat at the time. He's been a threat during the whole war on terror and when they got him, these guys weren't just going to put their hands up. It would be like a gangster shooting back at cops when they try to arrest him.

                              Plus, there was no reasonable doubt that Osama had been involved.

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