Bullying - A Rant (long)

[SkullKing]

If you think not religious = not a bully, than you are at best naive

At the very, very best.

[smileyeagle1021]

I've yet to meet an atheist bully.

Oh, and the inconvenience of moving.
Yeah, because I obviously have all the fucking money in the world.
No, there is no iron shackle on my ankle, there is however one around my wallet. Here I run the risk of being killed for being gay, in a more liberal city I run the certainty of living on the street.
Also right now, both the Methodist church and Mormon churches are pulling we know we stabbed you in the back and shit on you, but we forgive you for being weak and leaving and would accept you back... oh, if you're over this whole being gay thing.
I ask the missionaries to stop coming, but they keep coming. I ask the methodist church to stop calling, but they keep calling. They revel in reopening old wounds. I highly doubt I have the bad luck of dealing with the only two bad churches in the country. Hell, my mom was forced out of her church for condoning homosexuality, did our family just happen to get that unlucky that three different churches in two different states have harassed and bullying us, or is it a common trait in Christianity... I'm inclined to believe it's the latter. These fuckers weren't satisfied with ruining my youth, they insist on haunting me even into adulthood. My life is worthless to these people beyond the money I can give them.

Oh, and the fundamentalists who shout just a few verses, those are the ONLY verses I ever hear in my day to day life.

[Gravekeeper]

I've yet to meet an atheist bully.

I know one off the top of my head from high school. He was actually a friend of mine until we hit high school. Then he slowly morphed into a total asshole and bully. But he was one of those kids that was always a bit of a sociopath to begin with. Once he hit high school he fell fully to the dark side and started bullying the Hell out of a couple of kids in a lower grade. Not over anything specific either, they were just smaller then him and social outcasts, so they were easy targets.

Was all almost exclusively due to his father, who was a complete dick himself ( and one of our teachers! Yay! ). His dad would regularly bully students in class and ended up assaulting one in the long run. -.-

[Peppergirl]

I've yet to meet an atheist bully.

So, of course that means they don't exist, right? Because if it doesn't happen in YOUR personal experience, it never happens.

Yep, ALL Christians want you dead.

Guess what? I, at this moment, know of TWO people who are atheists and are the biggest, homophobic, bullying assholes you'd ever want to meet.

But again, since it doesn't happen to you, it simply doesn't happen. They don't exist, right?

I shudder at the amount of paint you must purchase, what with the whopping large brushstrokes you use in order to judge everyone so harshly.

[Nyoibo]

So wait, you ask every bully you meet "are you religious"?

[smileyeagle1021]

I shudder at the amount of paint you must purchase, what with the whopping large brushstrokes you use in order to judge everyone so harshly.

well, it comes quite easily when everyone else paints you with the same brush strokes. Hell, if I'm quick enough I can take some of the paint I've been painted with because of the vile human being I obviously am because I'm gay and use it to paint the same people who have painted me.
I tried being a better man, I got walked all over.
I fight back and get told I'm a bigot and prejudiced.
No matter what I do I'm fucked.
After the LDS church lied to my, convinced me I had a disease when I didn't, they told me to cut all ties to old friends because they were a bad influence, wanting to be cured I did, not counting family there is 3, count them 3, people from before I got involved in that fucking cult who will still talk to me. Want to guess how many people from when I was involved in the cult are willing to talk to me still? None, not a single one, my disfellowship was complete. But that was okay, I was going to make new friends going back to the Methodist church, after all, they accept all. Well, as soon as my orientation came up at Christ United Methodist everyone I considered a friend did a repeat of what the mormons did, they labeled me unclean and cast me out. And to this date, one of the first questions in breaking the ice is "what church do you go to" and very few people who ask that will move the relationship beyond saying hi in the breakroom if you don't have the answer to that, that is how important religion is in this miserable hellhole.
Intellectually, I know there must be atheist bullies out there, but emotionally, they are the only group I have dealings with that hasn't immediately cast me out for being gay or an atheist. Even then, if you wanted to know how many people I can truly call friends, I don't even run out of fingers. If I were killed tomorrow I highly doubt the memorial would fill my living room and at least one neighbor would have a celebration at the same time.
So, painting with broad brush strokes may be wrong, but it's the best defense mechanism I can come up with. Not all Christians will hate me, but enough do that if I keep all of them out I don't have to worry about getting hurt. Not all teachers are lazy uncaring scum, but it is far more comforting to think that than to ask what I did to deserve getting only the ones that are. Not all atheists are good people, but it's the last lifeline I have left in a state where Christian is synonymous with hates gays. But go on, sit in your ivory tower criticizing those of us who are already serving our terms in hell as a preview for where we will go for eternity.

[Peppergirl]

Trust me, I'll gladly sit in my ivory tower where I don't judge everyone of a certain group simply on the basis of my personal experiences. I'm sure I won't be lonely.

Everything you just said just proves my main point. If it doesn't happen to you, it doesn't happen.

I'll be sure to let my liberal minded, newly minted teacher son know that he's an asshole too. All teachers are, after all.

ETA: Oh, and he's a Christian too. Double whammy. Better sharpen up the the pitchforks.

[mooncat]

Shit. I just needed a place to vent about bullying and the damage it can do. I guess that's been amply demonstrated, but I'm sorry it's gotten so heated.

This is the only Bible verse that really means anything to me:

Romans 13:10 - "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

I wish more people followed that one instead of some of the others (many of which are misunderstood, mistranslated, or selectively quoted out of context to serve someone's agenda).

Smiley, I'm sorry for the pain you've gone through. I know words are easy to say, or type, but it's true nonetheless. I know there are others on this board who have also gone through hell, for lots of different reasons. All I can offer any of you is sympathy, hope that it gets better, and a hope for peace in your hearts and minds.

[Andara Bledin]

And to this date, one of the first questions in breaking the ice is "what church do you go to" and very few people who ask that will move the relationship beyond saying hi in the breakroom if you don't have the answer to that, that is how important religion is in this miserable hellhole.

The important part of this sentence bolded.

I don't even need more than one hand to count the number of times people have asked me in the last 30 years about church that wasn't part of a discussion specifically about religion.

Just because that's how it is there means nothing but the fact that that's how it is there.

By assuming that the entire rest of the world behaves the same as those around you, you have become the enemy. Sure, you have different targets, but you've let them win. They have made you into one of them, and you are not stopping them.

^-.-^

[RecoveringKinkoid]

So, Smiley, you'd rather be dead than have to live out of your car for a bit before you got your feet under you?

Seriously?

Because as much as living out of my vehicle, or having to sofa surf friends for a place to stay until I could get some sort of little job in order to start getting some income would suck, it would suck a whole lot less than being beaten to death by an angry mob. And when you consider angry mobs do things like curbing and necklacing and whatnot, the living out of my car is starting to look pretty freaking good. I'm just not okay with the idea of being violently lynched. I'm a little blown away that you are, especially when you consider the alternative is simply the sort of inconvenience that a lot of people have to live with every single day.

Having worked various retail jobs in my life, I"ve known a number of folks who lived in their car. They did what they had to do to survive.

So, maybe you won't have cable tv or a shower right down the hall. Dude...you can get a hot shower in a truck stop and frankly, as far as cable goes, nothing on right now is worth getting killed over. Not since Firefly was cancelled, anyways.

[HYHYBT]

They're (teachers) just like every other group of people: some good, some bad, some ugly.

…and every one of them imperfect, because we all are.

Religion has been the single biggest source of hate in the history of this sad little planet,

Not so. Religion makes the single biggest excuse for hatred. The hatred takes other forms when religion is absent, and may choose different targets, but it remains. You might even possibly take some of your own posts in this very thread as an example.

Sure, some people have given you ample cause to hate them… but it's still hatred, and you also indicate that it's gone far beyond that: ALL teachers (never mind the good ones, and yes, they are plentiful, whatever your personal experience has been); ALL people of faith, never mind now many are against the things that have caused you trouble every bit as much as anyone else…

double eta- I'm sure my manager at my second job will be comforted that his daughter coming home in tears every night because the Christians (including the vile teachers in this state) call his daughter a terrorist because she looks arabic has nothing to do with being Christian or a teacher.

That's not because they are Christians (or else all Christians would agree) nor because they are teachers (because many teachers aren't like that either) but because they are ignorant bigots. Ignorant bigots exist in virtually every occupation and belief (or non-belief, if you like) system.

All you need is a group that decides it's a-ok to be xenophobic and at least one individual who isn't part of that group.

You can go one further: for any group that has decided to be xenophobic, they will define their group so as to exclude someone so that they will have a target.

As for three churches…. well, first off, there are a lot more than three out there, and second, the official position of a church and the position of any individual Christian are not going to be the same on all matters. That's what happens when people group together: they mostly agree on what they're getting together FOR (in the case of a Christian church, that should be something along the lines of belief in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), but any group of more than a couple people will disagree on other things. Sometimes those other things become big enough issues within a group to cause it to split; other times, people agree to disagree, or work for change from within. But you won't find ANY group of significant size, whether religious or not, where all members agree on all things.

(As I understand it, by the way, the United Methodist Church within the US is predominantly OK with gayness; many congregations are not, though, and official policy is weighted by the fact that membership in the US is shrinking while that in countries where being gay is overwhelmingly considered evil is growing. But all that's neither here nor there.)

Not all Christians will hate me, but enough do that if I keep all of them out I don't have to worry about getting hurt.

It's not true that you won't have to worry about getting hurt that way, though that particular route to hurt may be closed off. It also means you're cutting yourself off from a lot of people who otherwise would be friends and allies. Not necessarily at church; you seem to have bad luck with that, aided by bad geography. But more generally speaking, at least.

Not all teachers are lazy uncaring scum, but it is far more comforting to think that than to ask what I did to deserve getting only the ones that are.

And you really think those are the only possible choices? Condemn all teachers everywhere, or else blame yourself for the bad ones you got? How about blaming the bad ones you got, and leaving it at that? Or consider the fact that life contains an element of chance?

Not all atheists are good people, but it's the last lifeline I have left in a state where Christian is synonymous with hates gays.

This may be the worst on the list. For you, I mean: sooner or later, you will run across nasty, bigoted, mean folks who happen to be atheist. And aside from the danger you may find yourself unprepared for, thinking merely being around atheists makes you somehow safe, if you insist on blacklisting entire groups, that will leave you with nobody left.

Ultimately, everybody is an individual.

I wonder… I'm not suggesting you join (not that you couldn't, but it doesn't seem like something you'd want to do where you are now) but have you ever heard of the Gay Christian Network? Reading through there for a bit would at least show that there really *are* some good ones around. It's certainly helped me.

[Rageaholic]

Not so. Religion makes the single biggest excuse for hatred. The hatred takes other forms when religion is absent, and may choose different targets, but it remains. You might even possibly take some of your own posts in this very thread as an example.

I agree with this. I'm no fan of religion and think it's doing more harm than good, but I don't think religion can be blamed for the cruelty this kid experienced. What I blame is the mob mentality that takes place in schools. Kids find someone who's different and then he or she becomes the outcast that is to be treated differently. It then becomes cool to make fun of that one kid and any who defends him or her will get the same treatment. That's my theory at least (from the psychology courses I took).

As for teachers, I have some issues with a certain attitude some of them have. But not all of them are like that and I've had just as many (if not more) good ones than bad.

[Nyoibo]

Shit. I just needed a place to vent about bullying and the damage it can do. I guess that's been amply demonstrated, but I'm sorry it's gotten so heated.

No need to apologise, it is a debate forum, this stuff happens.


People find excuses for their hatred and bigotry, just as people use religion as an excuse for their hatred of Smiley, Smiley uses those people as an excuse for his hatred of religion.

[smileyeagle1021]

So, Smiley, you'd rather be dead than have to live out of your car for a bit before you got your feet under you?

yes, death would be preferable to being homeless.
that is one thing from my upbringing that I can't overcome. there are certain lines that just aren't crossed in my family, and allowing ourselves to drop to the point of not being able to have a home (being a roommate wouldn't count as long as there is an agreement and I am paying my way), but since the first generation in the country, on either side, even in the great depression, there has been no periods where we haven't had a place to call our own. Also, with the exception of education financial aid and the invisible subsidies (subsidized transit, roadways, food safety, etc that everyone gets whether or not they ask for it) we have never had to ask for government assistance. I really don't want to be the first to change that.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

That's not what I said. I didn't say you become homeless and go on the dole.

I said, to paraphrase, you'd endure less than optimum lodging while you work to improve your own lot. Never at any point did I say or even imply that being homeless would be anything more than a temporary inconvenience.

So, you wouldn't pawn your valuables and live at a shelter (the one here will find you work and get you to and from said work as long as you stay sober) until you're on your feet to save your own life? Working a low paying temporary job while you get your life together is so odious to you you'd rather be violently lynched?

For someone who rails and complains how everyone wants you dead as much as you do, you don't seem to put too high a price on your own life. I would think you would at least put a marginally higher price on it than, say, your enemies seem to.

Poor people move every single day in this country.

Okay. So, you're so proud you can't move until you get that high paying dream job. The stakes for this dream job with a corner office that will allow you to immediately move into a penthouse condo somewhere are literally "do it or die." So I guess right now you're feverishly working towards that, right? Stakes like that, well...clearly, it's a no brainer. This is your LIFE.

So what are you doing towards that goal?