DUI Laws that Encourage Driving Drunk

[Andara Bledin]

A conversation on CS got me thinking about this.

Most laws aimed at punishing those who drive while under the influence are great. But there are a few that cross the line and punish those who choose to not drive drunk as if they had not made the better decision.

I, personally, am of the opinion that if an officer did not witness the driving and there is no evidence that any driving took place, they should just move along.

As it stands, there are quite a few jurisdictions where being the only person in a vehicle and being in possession of the keys to the vehicle will get a person slapped with a DUI charge even if they were only there to keep out of the elements while waiting and the keys were still in the individual's pocket. At that point, they might as well try to make it home, if they're going to be hit with a DUI either way, as there's less chance of getting stopped than being spotted in the parking lot of a bar.

It's not like we have any shortage of drunk driving citations as it is. At this point, we are now punishing people who are trying to be responsible, and that's neither right nor effective.

^-.-^

[bara]

I agree with you on this one.

I think its more of a 'hey what else can we do to get ticket revenue'.

[HYHYBT]

It makes sense that they would word drunk driving laws to make it easy to get a conviction... but that doesn't make it any less wrong to punish someone for something they didn't do. And that includes misdefining offenses.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

There's a pretty hilarious story about my husband and my ex boyfriend (room mates) getting shit faced...and I do mean shit faced...at the Midnight Movies (we had that in town when we were all in college) and sleeping it off in the husband's car in an empty lot near the movie theater parking lot. (this is before I was dating either of them, I think). A cop found them, checked them out, and did not ticket them. It should have been pretty obvious that they were staying put, so I guess the cop decided not to be stupid about it.

I would hate to think someone would have arrested or ticketed them for choosing to sleep it off rather than drive in that kind of state.

[MadMike]

At that point, they might as well try to make it home, if they're going to be hit with a DUI either way, as there's less chance of getting stopped than being spotted in the parking lot of a bar.

I've always felt the same way about the law that you can lose your license for underage drinking. Not drinking and driving, just drinking. I won't address the whole "at 18 you can die for your country but can't drink alcohol" issue, as I'm pretty sure there's at least one other thread on it.

Picture an 18-year-old at at a drinking party. Let's not debate whether he should or shouldn't have been there, let's just say, right or wrong, he was. He intends to stay put because he knows that if he gets caught driving like that, he'll lose his license.

But then someone calls the cops on the party. He sees them coming, and decides to take a chance and drive off before he gets there. He'll lose his license if they catch him driving like that, but he'll lose it anywhere if he stays there. So he figures he might as well take his chances and get the hell out of there.

OK, that being said, I have a huge problem with cops arresting people on things they didn't do, but could have. If that's allowed, then we should start arresting all these cops that carry guns. It would go something like this:

"I'm making a citizen's arrest against Officer So-and-so for murder!"

"On what grounds?"

"He's carrying a gun."

"But he didn't shoot anyone with it."

"No, but he could have."

I had an incident of overdoing it at the bar myself a few weeks ago, and chose to sleep it off in the car for a few hours before leaving. I wasn't taking any chances though. I didn't sleep in the driver's seat or even in the front of the car at all. I curled up in the back seat. That particular area doesn't have a lot of police anyway, but if a cop did pass by and check out my car, I would hope he'd have some sense and realize I wasn't driving from the back seat. Not like I supposedly tried to do on my birthday. But that's another story.

[HYHYBT]

I think that was the plot to an episode of Alice. Alice was arrested for prostitution; not because she was having sex for money, or even trying to, but because the two women next to her were prostitutes. And that was her defense: the arresting officer, who had already testified and apparently made a good impression, was sitting in the courtroom next to those same women, and Alice told the judge she wanted to make a citizen's arrest because he was in the company of known prostitutes. This being television, the judge said he'd have to either fine them both or set them both free.

[Panacea]

I"m afraid I don't agree.

People who are intoxicated are notorious for their poor judgement. It's a short step from being drunk in a car to driving drunk.

Cops have something called discretion. They are not required to arrest a drunk sleeping it off in a car. I rather think a cop who finds a drunk sleeping it off in the back seat of a car legally parked, no keys in the ignition would give that drunk a pass. Sleeping it off in the driver's seat, keys in ignition? Go to jail. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.

People who get drunk and need a way home have options. It's called, CAll A Cab! or Go With a Designated Driver!. Designated Driver's are not as hard to find as you might imagine. I was very popular with my friends for always volunteering to be the designated driver: I don't like getting drunk, and seldom drink to excess. Being the DD is a great excuse not to drink.

I also don't buy the idea of the underage drinker driving because that's his only choice if the cops raid his party. He still has a choice: man up and accept the consequences of underage drinking. Running away, on foot or in a car, is just running away from the consequences of your decisions. If such a person chooses to drive drunk in an effort to avoid those consequences, he garners no sympathy from me. And if he stays and gets caught, well, I would say that's the adult decision.

When I was 19, I got a parking ticket. I was pretty angry about it. The cop who wrote the ticket saw me when I was leaving the building to head to my car; I did an about face and went back inside, hoping he'd go away and not ticket me.

He waited me out to give me the ticket in person.

Later that night, when I gave my mother the 10 bucks so she could write the check to pay the ticket, I said, "I hope he chokes on it!"

Mom: Wrong attitude! You chose to park illegally. You got caught. it's not that officers fault you did the wrong thing. Be an adult.

Me:

I had a deal with my parents about drinking and driving. If I drank, I'd call home for a ride. No questions asked. Took Dad up on it once. He came and got me, and asked no questions.

We all have choices. We can choose to be responsible. Or not. Either way, the consequences are on us.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I"m afraid I don't agree.

People who are intoxicated are notorious for their poor judgement. It's a short step from being drunk in a car to driving drunk.

.

It's often a short step from the bar to the car, too. Where do you draw the line?

Using that logic, you could arrest someone the instant they got drunk, because they MIGHT walk out to their car, get in, and drive away.

You could arrest someone after one beer. Because it's a short step to ordering another one and then driving away drunk. If the very act of being drunk inside a car, driving or not, is something you can get arrested or ticketed for, then there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to have a designated driver. Because by that logic, a sober person cannot drive you home when you've had too many.

Here the thing with drunks and their poor judgment. At some point, that drunk guy was a sober guy. And at some point while he was sober, he made the decision to become a drunk guy. While he is sober, he knows what his plans for the evening are. He knows if he's planning on driving drunk, sleeping it off in the backseat, or calling a cab. He knows what his options are and he also knows if he should drink or not.

I'm not an armchair ref in the fine art of getting inebriated. I consider myself a bit of a veteran. I've never, ever gotten busted for DUI. Know why? Because I have never, nor would I ever, drive even slightly drunk. Even vaguely tipsy. I take my drinking seriously and I take my driving seriously. Too seriously to do both at the same time.

[MadMike]

Cops have something called discretion.

Problem is, they don't always use it.

I
And if he stays and gets caught, well, I would say that's the adult decision.

But should someone get their license taken away because they were drinking before some arbitrary age, when they weren't hurting anyone? You might say yes, and some people would agree, but I don't. And I wasn't saying that it's OK to get behind the wheel and get away, just saying that a lot of people would think, "Oh shit! Here come the cops! I might as well try to get the hell out of here. If I get caught here or in the car, I lose my license either way."

[Panacea]

It's often a short step from the bar to the car, too. Where do you draw the line?

Using that logic, you could arrest someone the instant they got drunk, because they MIGHT walk out to their car, get in, and drive away.

You could arrest someone after one beer. Because it's a short step to ordering another one and then driving away drunk.

I'm not an armchair ref in the fine art of getting inebriated. I consider myself a bit of a veteran. I've never, ever gotten busted for DUI. Know why? Because I have never, nor would I ever, drive even slightly drunk. Even vaguely tipsy. I take my drinking seriously and I take my driving seriously. Too seriously to do both at the same time.

It comes down to personal responsibility. There are those who advocate installing breathalyzers in every new car as a tool to stopping drunk driving. I'm not one of them.

If a bartender lets a drunk leave his bar and get into a vehicle and drive drunk, he may face legal repercussions in many states.

Some people are drunk after one beer. If they get in a car and drive, they should be arrested.

And there are laws against being drunk in public. So if you leave a bar and are drunk, you can already be arrested for it. Most cops aren't going to arrest an intoxicated person who is not causing a problem. They use their discretion all the time, in spite of what MadMike says below, because cops have bigger fish to fry than hassling every tipsy person they meet.

But should someone get their license taken away because they were drinking before some arbitrary age, when they weren't hurting anyone? You might say yes, and some people would agree, but I don't. And I wasn't saying that it's OK to get behind the wheel and get away, just saying that a lot of people would think, "Oh shit! Here come the cops! I might as well try to get the hell out of here. If I get caught here or in the car, I lose my license either way."

If you don't like the drinking age laws (and I don't, because they don't work), then lobby for a change. But not liking a law is no excuse to break it.

Yes, if someone is 18 and gets caught drinking, and has a license, and the law is he loses that license, then I'm fine with that.

And any drunk who thinks it's worth a shot to drive drunk in an attempt to circumvent that penalty, which he knew about when he got his license, is no better than the legal age drunk driver: both clearly think the rules don't apply to them, and believe their own personal needs trump public safety. I've taken care of too many drunk driving victims to give a damn about the poor little teenager who does something stupid because he doesn't like the law of the land.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Yeah, I am that person who is drunk after one beer. I know, believe me.

The stuff hits my bloodstream like rocket fuel. I have no resistance whatsoever.

However, there's nothing different about me that makes me so special and magical that I can make a responsible decision about how to enjoy my vices without harming another or breaking a law while others can't.

They can. They just don't. And they cause a LOT of problems.

And not that I think this will ever come to pass...but logically? Bars should be outlawed. I mean, think about it. It's illegal to drive drunk, and it should be. It's illegal to stagger down the street on foot after a couple hours at Wet Willies (oops), and it's illegal to sleep it off in your car. Why are bars still legal? At least in the US, things are far apart and you have to take a vehicle to get everywhere. Most people don't walk to and from pubs anymore. They drive.

Really, that defies logic to me.

[MadMike]

If you don't like the drinking age laws (and I don't, because they don't work), then lobby for a change.

Sorry, I don't have the millions of dollars it takes to buy off a legislator.

But not liking a law is no excuse to break it.

Not necessarily. Sometimes the only way to get a bad law repealed is to show that people will refuse to obey it. It's called "civil disobedience." Prohibition was repealed not because the powers that be realized it was a bad law, it's because people refused to obey it and it ended up causing more problems than it solved.

Yes, if someone is 18 and gets caught drinking, and has a license, and the law is he loses that license, then I'm fine with that.

Even if he was nowhere near a car? That's a punishment that has absolutely nothing to do with a crime. And a victimless crime at that.

And any drunk who thinks it's worth a shot to drive drunk in an attempt to circumvent that penalty, which he knew about when he got his license, is no better than the legal age drunk driver:

I agree with you somewhat on this: An underage person who drinks and drives is no different than a person of age who does it. My dad had to pull his drunk neighbor out of his car before he ended up burning himself to death a few years ago. The guy made it home OK, but passed just after he put the car in park but just before shutting off the ignition. His foot was pushing down on the accelerator all the way, fulling revving the engine until it caught on fire and started spreading to the rest of the car. This guy was in his 50s.

both clearly think the rules don't apply to them, and believe their own personal needs trump public safety.

What "public safety" is jeapordized by some 18-20 year old having a beer in a private place?

[Rageaholic]

But should someone get their license taken away because they were drinking before some arbitrary age, when they weren't hurting anyone?

No.

I know this isn't a discussion on drinking age, but the laws on it are seriously flawed. And lobbying for change either takes too long or may not be as reliable. Yeah yeah, I know realistically we have to buck up and take it, but the law still sucks.

And not that I think this will ever come to pass...but logically? Bars should be outlawed. I mean, think about it. It's illegal to drive drunk, and it should be. It's illegal to stagger down the street on foot after a couple hours at Wet Willies (oops), and it's illegal to sleep it off in your car. Why are bars still legal? At least in the US, things are far apart and you have to take a vehicle to get everywhere. Most people don't walk to and from pubs anymore. They drive.

Really, that defies logic to me.

Yeah, it sounds like you're limited with what you can do if you get drunk anywhere else in your home. I guess designated drivers, but that leaves out the option of going on your own.

I was never clear on how much alchohol you can have in your system to get arrested. Logically, it should be how much you handle without getting drunk, but I don't know if that's the law. The most I've ever had before driving was a sip.

[Andara Bledin]

I was never clear on how much alchohol you can have in your system to get arrested. Logically, it should be how much you handle without getting drunk, but I don't know if that's the law. The most I've ever had before driving was a sip.

Technically, that would depend upon the laws of the land. It's usually a set percentage, and how many drinks get you to that percentage depends on the type of drink, how much body mass you have, and how quickly your metabolism works.

But that's irrelevant, because they can haul you in without having to arrest you. And if they don't arrest you, they don't have to read your rights. In California, you can be held for 48 hours without any charges being leveled.

^-.-^

[PepperElf]

OK, that being said, I have a huge problem with cops arresting people on things they didn't do, but could have. If that's allowed, then we should start arresting all these cops that carry guns. It would go something like this:

I won't requote your entire post but it reminds me of something my bf read on one of his message boards. It was a long post but I'll trim it down to the bare facts

Man was trying to just eat a juicy burger and had an accidental gun flash (aka "reveal") when he reached for something on the table. He pulled his shirt back down over it but not before another customer saw it and started screaming at him non-stop over it and wouldn't leave him alone no matter what. A second man allowed himself a flash which spun her up even more ... screaming at both men and the manager for not kicking them out.

Manager kicked her out and she called the cops reporting that there were two men with guns in the restaurant. Cops showed up, proned out the two men and she laughed at them... until the cops realized they were just customers with legal CCW permits and gave them their weapons back. Crazy bitch started up again, screaming at the cop... and got arrested for making a false crime report. Men went back to eating their burgers finally in peace.






And back to the topic in hand....

As for cops promoting DUI, it may depend on the circumstances.

i.e. walking down a no-pedestrian highway just because you're too drunk to drive for example is still not legal.

or driving without a license. yes the driver might be the sober one but, if he's still not legal to drive due to license issues then he shouldn't be the one driving period. If he's the only sober person there? Tough luck. Call for someone who can legally drive or pay for a cab. Lack of preparation is no one else's fault.