A New Definition for Shared Sacrifice

[mikoyan29]

http://metrotimes.com/columns/screwi...gain-1.1216550

Apparently when they say shared sacrifice, they mean that everyone else shares the sacrifice. You want to talk about entitlements. I wonder how many jobs would give full benefits after 6 years?

[Gravekeeper]

http://metrotimes.com/columns/screwi...gain-1.1216550

Apparently when they say shared sacrifice, they mean that everyone else shares the sacrifice. You want to talk about entitlements. I wonder how many jobs would give full benefits after 6 years?

Honestly, if the average America actually paid attention to even half of what congress and the senate do you'd have had a revolution years ago. -.-

[FArchivist]

I'm not seeing what you mean here.

[Kheldarson]

What GK means is that Americans allow themselves to have the wool pulled over us by our politicians. We don't proactively follow government policies or changes, and accept blindly that what they tell us is true. And we only get upset when something big like the OP breaks. If we as a whole paid more attention we would have thrown out the whole current government and reset it like we were intended to do according to the Founding Fathers.

[BlaqueKatt]

the effects of apathy at it's finest can be viewed daily in the American political system.....

I wonder how many jobs would give full benefits after 6 years?

well it takes at least 20 in the military, if you survive and can deal with the horrible wages.....seriously an E-4 with 6 years of service makes a whopping $1200 a month take home pay, if it was a 40 hour a week job it would be $7.50 per hour, but since it's a 24 hour a day job(you are always on duty and can be called in on a moment's notice), it's $1.67 per hour.

[mikoyan29]

Honestly, if the average America actually paid attention to even half of what congress and the senate do you'd have had a revolution years ago. -.-

This is just the State Senate and Legislature. I can't imagine what sort of perks the national folks get. What's really interesting that after the 6 years in the Legislature are up, you're likely to find yourself in the Senate (but I forget what the terms are there) and possibly on to the US House. If you don't find yourself going in those directions, you are very likely to find yourself as a lobbyist. Which is interesting because that is one of the reasons why the US Congress was talking about ending military retirements. AGain, I guess shared sacrifice only means the plebes sacrifice.

[FArchivist]

What GK means is that Americans allow themselves to have the wool pulled over us by our politicians. We don't proactively follow government policies or changes, and accept blindly that what they tell us is true. And we only get upset when something big like the OP breaks. If we as a whole paid more attention we would have thrown out the whole current government and reset it like we were intended to do according to the Founding Fathers.

1) You can't proactively follow government policies or changes unless you've got more time than you would be alive or unless you narrowed your field considerably. Spend some time just reading through the legislation that is PASSED in Congress in just one year; you'll find it a nearly impossible task.

And no, there's no real way to simplify it. The more technologically advanced we become and the more our civilization evolves, the more complex things get. The more complex things are, the more nuance and definition and specialization is required in order to keep it going.

I'm not quite seeing any hypocrisy or "pulling wool" here. It states very clearly what happened and it's really no different than such proposals/repeals that have taken place in other states.

2) There is no documentation stating that 'resetting the whole government' was the intention of the Founding Fathers. No, Jefferson does not count - he didn't sign the US Constitution, nor was he present at the time. In fact, reading the Federalist Papers shows that if there was any intent, it was that the federal government would remain so long as the US Constitution remained in effect.

If you want to reset the federal government, you're going to have to toss out that piece of paper we all rely on for our rights and supreme law as well. I do NOT recommend that.

[FArchivist]

This is just the State Senate and Legislature. I can't imagine what sort of perks the national folks get.

It's on public record, if you want to look it up. In fact, I believe it's on Wikipedia.

[Kheldarson]

2) There is no documentation stating that 'resetting the whole government' was the intention of the Founding Fathers. No, Jefferson does not count - he didn't sign the US Constitution, nor was he present at the time. In fact, reading the Federalist Papers shows that if there was any intent, it was that the federal government would remain so long as the US Constitution remained in effect.

If you want to reset the federal government, you're going to have to toss out that piece of paper we all rely on for our rights and supreme law as well. I do NOT recommend that.

Washington discouraged parties. None of them wanted government interfering with the day to day lives of the people. And there was an intent for a quiet revolution with the elections...one where the old went out and the new came in. We've quite abandoned that.

[Gravekeeper]

1) You can't proactively follow government policies or changes unless you've got more time than you would be alive or unless you narrowed your field considerably.

I seem to do just fine keeping up on the major points of American politics just by reading a webpage here or there at work, and I'm not even American. No one suggested trying to follow every single last piece of legislation. But it doesn't take a lot of time or effort to keep an eye on whats going on. Yet most Americans seem content to ignore their own politics than just blame whomever the TV tells them too when shit goes wrong.

Hence the problem. There are things so fundementally wrong with American politics and the American economy that if the average American actually paid attention to them the streets would be full of people screaming for blood.

[mikoyan29]

I'm not quite seeing any hypocrisy or "pulling wool" here. It states very clearly what happened and it's really no different than such proposals/repeals that have taken place in other states.

The hypocrisy here is that they are expecting every other state employee to take pay cuts and lose benefits but somehow they aren't willing to do it themselves. That is the hypocrisy. And many of those state employees have worked alot longer than these folks. They don't have a problem making the plebes adjust but they aren't willing to do the same for themselves. Heck, even the Governor is working for a buck (not that he's hurting for money).

[drunkenwildmage]

the effects of apathy at it's finest can be viewed daily in the American political system.....

Along that lines
Things I've noticed.

1) allot of people are more concerned with voting for winner of American Idle, then they are for voting for who is running for mayor, Governor, president, etc.

2) Of the people who do vote, allot of them will only vote for filmier names, or for the same party blindly, without realizing who/what they are voting for. Thus the same group of schmucks keep get voted in.

3) allot of people are more concerned with image then content. IE) They would vote for. "Does the guy look good? great!!? Dumber then a box of rocks? ok.. that doen't matter as much..I'm going to vote for him."

4) alllot of people will vote for who the TV/Radio Tells him to vote for instead of researching it themselves. IE) 'I was watching Oberman last night, ans he told me I would considered unamerican because I didn't vote for "Smith".' or 'Rush told me to vote for 'Johnson' because it was the right thing to do.'

5) allot of People will only vote for what an organizational will tell them who to vote for (I noticed this at a presidential election a few years ago, I saw 2 or 3 people with a printed cards from unions that had 'union endorsed' candidates on it. They would goes down the list, like a checklist, and vote just for the people on the card.




Just my observations.

[FArchivist]

Washington discouraged parties. None of them wanted government interfering with the day to day lives of the people. And there was an intent for a quiet revolution with the elections...one where the old went out and the new came in. We've quite abandoned that.

And Thomas Jefferson, whom the Tea Partiers, conservatives, and libertarians seem to have canonized as a saint, encouraged parties. And what you say about them not wanting government to interfere with the day-to-day lives of the people isn't necessarily true; see the writings of Alexander Hamilton, who was responsible for dang near half of the Constitution.

As for intent, it's almost impossible to say what the intent was since you had 70 different Framers at the Constitutional Convention and, in the end, 70 different intents. So yes, the intent of SOME was to have a 'quiet revolution' with the elections. Others, not so much...like Washington and Hamilton.

Hence the problem. There are things so fundementally wrong with American politics and the American economy that if the average American actually paid attention to them the streets would be full of people screaming for blood.

OK. Like what?

The hypocrisy here is that they are expecting every other state employee to take pay cuts and lose benefits but somehow they aren't willing to do it themselves. That is the hypocrisy. And many of those state employees have worked alot longer than these folks. They don't have a problem making the plebes adjust but they aren't willing to do the same for themselves. Heck, even the Governor is working for a buck (not that he's hurting for money).

And yet strangely, I could swear that the current meme is that legislators will save us all from the leeches who infest the state government, like teachers and district attorneys and the bureaucracy in general, who all need to be cut off at the knees for the good of America. Or at least, so I heard on Glenn Beck.

[Gravekeeper]

OK. Like what?

I don't think the forum allows for enough characters to explain in depth. >.>

Suffice it to say even just watching congress for 20 minutes is enough to have me beating my head against a wall. The partisanship, stupidity, special interests, etc is enough to drive you up the wall.

Then you have the piggybacking of totally unrelated fluff onto other bills. The total gutting of any bill that actually sounds like it might do something good or help somebody. Bills that involve regulations are especially frustrating, as they get watered down to absolutely nothing. Then whatever's left has a deadline on it of 10-15 years out. Plenty of time to get around to killing the last of it next time "Our Guy" is in power.

The entire system is, at its core, totally dysfunctional now and has nothing to do with running the country and everything to do with just sticking it to the other team. While the country burns down around them. You can't create anything solid because everything you do gets penned onto a hit list for immediate eradication the next time the other team gets into power.

The GOP is literally campaigning on the things they'll repeal if they get near the throne again. -.-

[mikoyan29]

And yet strangely, I could swear that the current meme is that legislators will save us all from the leeches who infest the state government, like teachers and district attorneys and the bureaucracy in general, who all need to be cut off at the knees for the good of America. Or at least, so I heard on Glenn Beck.

That was kind of my point and the point of the article, these are the same people that think its perfectly okay to cut teacher salaries and benefits but aren't willing to do the same for themselves.