"Occupy" turning to violence

[linguist]

Well, they erred on the side of making sure they didn't continue to get attacked.

so if one person attacks me, it's ok to violently lash out with disproportionate force against everyone else in the area because they might attack me? i'm sorry, i thought our justice system was based on what you have done, not what you might do.

It's tough when the violent protesters are too big of sissies so they try to use innocent protesters as human meat shields and then innocents get hurt as a result.

are you seriously saying that it's ok to harm the innocent as long as the guilty get punished as well?

and really, if any group are the sissies here, i'd have to go with the police, for hiding behind riot gear, firearms, and explosives against (allegedly) rocks and paint.

[Greenday]

so if one person attacks me, it's ok to violently lash out with disproportionate force against everyone else in the area because they might attack me? i'm sorry, i thought our justice system was based on what you have done, not what you might do.

It's okay to attack your attackers and it's might unfortunate when a bunch of innocent people get in the way and pay for their violent brethren's mistakes.

are you seriously saying that it's ok to harm the innocent as long as the guilty get punished as well?

Nope. Never said anything of the sort.

and really, if any group are the sissies here, i'd have to go with the police, for hiding behind riot gear, firearms, and explosives against (allegedly) rocks and paint.

Oh, see, I thought showing up to fight like this without armor was stupid. Fighting with armor on doesn't make you a sissy, it makes you smart.

[Andara Bledin]

It's okay to attack your attackers and it's might unfortunate when a bunch of innocent people get in the way and pay for their violent brethren's mistakes.

are you seriously saying that it's ok to harm the innocent as long as the guilty get punished as well?

Nope. Never said anything of the sort.

I love how, in the same post, you go from saying "It's okay to hurt innocents when you get back at your attackers" to saying that you never said anything of the sort.

You'd think that much contradiction in that little space would spontaneously combust.

By the way, to re-iterate an earlier point of mine: Trusting proven liars to not be lying is naive.

^-.-^

[Canarr]

I can see no attacking going on in that video; actually, the cops behind that barricade look pretty relaxed to me, not particularly worried. And why would they? They actually outnumber that group of protesters trying to aid the injured guy!

Now, I'm not familiar with the Oakland PD policies, but I seriously doubt you can actually call it a riot if there are more riot cops than rioters; seems... unfitting. Now, I realize that there are more protesters outside of the camera's focus, but I still can't see any justification for that flash-bang. The protesters aren't moving towards the cops, there's no threatening rhetoric or body language, nothing. No provocation.

In Germany, you cannot claim self-defense if there is no current, ongoing, unlawful attack taking place. And, try as I might, can't see that here.

[Greenday]

I love how, in the same post, you go from saying "It's okay to hurt innocents when you get back at your attackers" to saying that you never said anything of the sort.

You'd think that much contradiction in that little space would spontaneously combust.

By the way, to re-iterate an earlier point of mine: Trusting proven liars to not be lying is naive.

^-.-^

Hm, read those quotes.

No idea what you are trying to prove with quotes that don't support your argument.

[Gravekeeper]

Greenday, did you even watch any of the footage posted? Because I'm seriously confused about the position your defending despite glaring evidence to the contrary so far. The protestors positions have been explained a number of times, footage has been posted both abriged and the extended 4 minutes or so I posted showing the lead up to the incident, the Oakland PD did not follow their own procedure and blatantly lied to cover their asses so far and yet you're still sitting here seemingly arguing based on "the cops said someone threw some paint and a couple rocks" alone?

The protesters were largely peaceful. That one guy got his skull cracked by a gas canister. People went to help him, they were flashbanged at close range by a cop that seemingly did it just for the fuck of it. As the officers around him were relaxed and making no move to do anything. A flashbang can be lethal. Nevermind tossing it at an injured man laying on the ground. On top of that, right before the video ends you can see a gas canister fly into frame at the injured dude as well.

So these officers A) Ignored a clearly badly injured man in the open, making no move to get him to safety. B) Flashbanged people who went to help him instead, risking both them and the injured man. C) Deciding that apparently wasn't enough, threw in the tear gas too because if there's anything a guy with potentially life threatening brain injuries needs its a flashbang going off next to him then a tear gas canister next to him.

None of this is justified even by their own police procedures and they immediately lied out of the gate to try and cover their ass.

[Gravekeeper]

Update on the injured dude:

"Scott Olsen requires surgery to relive the pressure on his brain, according to his roommate Keith Shannon. "Neurosurgeons have decided he needs surgery to relieve the pressure on his brain and it will happen in a day or two," Shannon said. He added that Olsen's parents should be arriving at the hospital to be with their son shortly."


And here's what he did to deserve being shot in the face at dangerously close range.

Absolutely fucking nothing except stand there.

I'm frankly completely appalled and disgusted now.

[Andara Bledin]

So, despite the police's best efforts to incite a riot, the Oakland protesters stood up to be the better people. Not only refusing to become violent to excuse the police's completely unprovoked and unacceptable attack, but rushing to the aid of a wounded bystander and refusing to be chased off as the police continue to attack them without any instigation.

You know what? Those cops are fucking pigs. They have no honor, no shame, and no decency and anyone who would stand up and defend their actions is a fascist asshole.

^-.-^

[Duelist925]

Ok, Greenday, please--put up or shut up. I've been reading this thread, and you have not given ONE shred of evidence to back up your claims. You have been out argued by multiple people, multiple times, and haven't answered even the most basic questions put to you regarding the video being discussed, which you haven't even watched. So, watch it. Don't give me shit about your connection, go to a library or something. Watch the video. Please. Or watch the other one, where the man is actually given the skull fracture. If you can watch those two videos, and STILL defend what these pigs, these cowardly, bullying swine, did in them, then you need corrective lenses sir or maam.


And please, don't even start with me about supporting the police.I love police....that are decent men and women, doing a good job. These animals? Not fit to wear a badge. I'm not going to argue supporting the police as a whole. Im not even going to argue ANY OTHER possible incidents of violence or rioting. Because if I don't see video evidence, I ain't buying it, from EITHER side, protesters or cops.


I'm only speaking of the video proof we have, right here, of the cops acting, as has been pointed out multiple times, in ways that are against THEIR OWN PROCEDURES AND RULES. Which they then lied about.

[AdminAssistant]

Duelist, there's no way for you to know this, of course, but Greenday is currently in Afghanistan. There is no library.

[Gravekeeper]

Oh hey, it turns out the riot police in Oakland do have cameras. They have nifty little cameras in protective plastic shielding on the top of sticks that they hold up when they move in so they can ID people I guess.

Yet, oddly, they haven't released any footage of being attacked by hordes of viscious protestors. -.-

Meanwhile, here's the entire lead up to the moment the gas and flashbangs come out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgn4IXHyVdI&

I especially like Sheriff Anger Management at the start there, snapping at the woman helping herself up on the barricade.

[bara]

Yet, oddly, they haven't released any footage of being attacked by hordes of viscious protestors. -.-

Heaven forbid they release evidence that justifies thier actions. Justification is all they have now since everyone knows it happened.

Here is the thing. I WANT to believe the police had a good reason for what they did. But the evidence against is pretty tough to crack.

I beleive the majority of police are just trying to do thier job. But all it takes is one hot head to cause a fire.

[Duelist925]

Duelist, there's no way for you to know this, of course, but Greenday is currently in Afghanistan. There is no library.

Ah, my apologies then. I retract that particular bit.

[Greenday]

Multiple people asking if I viewed their youtube videos when I already said "No" and explained that my less than dialup internet speeds would mean taking forever to download those videos. Check.

I just find it funny that in a topic about protesters turning violent, people refuse to talk about the topic and instead try to turn it on the police. The police have done some wrong, but the denial I see in this thread about protesters not being violent just because the police were too busy doing their jobs to play with video cameras is worse than I hear from my friends who smoke and refuse to admit they are addicted.

[Panacea]

Multiple people asking if I viewed their youtube videos when I already said "No" and explained that my less than dialup internet speeds would mean taking forever to download those videos. Check.

I just find it funny that in a topic about protesters turning violent, people refuse to talk about the topic and instead try to turn it on the police. The police have done some wrong, but the denial I see in this thread about protesters not being violent just because the police were too busy doing their jobs to play with video cameras is worse than I hear from my friends who smoke and refuse to admit they are addicted.

Whoa, hold on there. You haven't thought this through.

Those who disagree with you have supported their claims with evidence, which you can't evaluate on their face because you can't view the videos.

You also haven't supported your claims with any evidence of your own. The fact that you are in the military in Afghanistan explains why; your access to information is limited by dial up speeds and whatever other restrictions on news you have to deal with in your environment.

Unfortunately, that does not relieve of you of your responsibility to prove your claims. Simply not having the same access to up to date information does not mean that you can make a claim and not back it up, or that we have to give you a bye because of that lack of access.

I think what you should acknowledge here is that you are not in a position to make an informed opinion on the subject one way or the other.

On another note, I find it highly ironic that while Americans generally supported the months long demonstrations and protests of the Arab Spring, the same people who were happy to see these dictators fall are now criticizing home grown protestors who are bringing a fresh attention on our local and serious economic problems.

Funny how I didn't hear anyone say, "The Syrian government is right to break up those protests; they are taking up too much public space and making a mess."