"Occupy" turning to violence

[Gravekeeper]

I'll be brief - as concise as I can - with my thoughts.

The Oakland protest has obviously had some minor violence from some individual people somewhere in the masses. I don't believe these were necessarily Occupy supporters, and I don't necessarily believe they weren't.

Its about a group of 70 Anarchists that are not part of Occupy, per the Oakland Police Chief himself.

A FEW of the police have done some really awful, stupid things. I don't think the4se are supported by the police on the whole, but at the same time, they do seem to be trying to cover their butts and deny anything was done, incorrectly or otherwise. I think both sides had some fault in what happened, but I think that, in both cases, it comes down to individuals. It still sucks.

I'm going to have to disagree. The stupid things done in Oakland were organized stupid things, and the stupid things done in NY have been systematic. The NYPD has made their attitude towards the whole situation quite clear over repeated incidents as has the mayor. Oakland's mayor at least has the decency to be in "Oh shit oh shit" PR damage control mode now though.

Having watched the footage, it's clear to me that an officer gently lobbed a flashbang with the intent of landing it in the middle of the group, who were crowding around an injured man and neither paying much attention to nor advancing on the riot cops behind the barricades.

Well, flashbangs aren't less flashbangy when lobbed gentlely. Also right before the end of the clip, you can see a tear gas canister come sailing in at them from the other direction too. >.>

[Andara Bledin]

Its about a group of 70 Anarchists that are not part of Occupy, per the Oakland Police Chief himself.

So, the police chief has come out and said that the anarchist violence was an opportunistic act by a violent group. No big surprise, there.

Oakland's mayor at least has the decency to be in "Oh shit oh shit" PR damage control mode now though.

Well, Oakland does have an awful lot of practice denying their law enforcement did the wrong thing.

Also right before the end of the clip, you can see a tear gas canister come sailing in at them from the other direction too. >.>

There are a lot of gas canisters fired in that video. They're not very useful, though, as pretty much every single one was almost immediately grabbed and lobbed back to the police.

^-.-^

[Skunkle]

Either way, the Oakland cops throwing the flashbang into the group helping the injured man was a clear-cut, simple dick move. Nothing less. Like I said, I got the feeling when watching the vid that the guy who threw it could have been thinking, "I'm sick to death of all this crap. F*ck all of you. Here, if we haven't made the point already, I/WE HATE YOU for pulling this crap!!"

What have the NY cops been doing?

[Gravekeeper]

What have the NY cops been doing?

Oh lordie, what haven't they been doing? Random pepperspraying, sucker punch KOs on protestors, unlawful arrests, entrapment, controversial crowd control tactics, you name it. Its like the only order handed down from the mayor was "Fuck those hippies". >.>

[Skunkle]

Had an argument with my ex-BF over that same sentiment. He despises hippies, thinks they were a bunch of unwashed dumbasses making fools of themselves. Feels the same way about these guys - that though the world does need to change, their attempts will be futile, so they should sit down, shut up and figure out a way to fix things that doesn't involve living in a tent in a city park and strumming a guitar. Said the Oakland people "got what they deserved" (though I'm certain he didn't know more than "protesters threw rocks and stuff, cops retaliated", which is the basic line the news is giving). After some arguing, he finally conceded that he didn't really care as long as they leave him alone - his basic preference in life being "Everyone leave me the hell alone and we'll be fine".

Got some links to articles on violence by the NY cops? i honestly have no idea where to look that won't be heavily biased.

[Greenday]

To be fair, I'm sure there's other areas within his unit that Greenday can access that provide better DL speed. I know that he's advised that in his home area, the DL speeds are ridiculously slow.

GD and I don't always see eye-to-eye, but he's never, to my knowledge, been dishonest. Not really fair to insinuate otherwise.

I'll absolutely give Greenday a pass on Youtube vids. Sometimes he's got connection, sometimes he doesn't, I highly doubt he's covering anything. In fact, I'll say I'm certain.

Was able to watch it on someone else's computer who's been following it enough and downloads videos all day while at work. I bring my laptop to work where I have no internet available except on my work computer (where youtube is blocked and fratching).

[Gravekeeper]

Got some links to articles on violence by the NY cops? i honestly have no idea where to look that won't be heavily biased.

KO Punch for no reason ( Love how other officers have to shove him off to stop him from just curb stomping the guy )
Random Beat Down
Captain Pepperspray
Captain Pepperspray again
What's That? You Have a Flag?

Just goes on and on if you follow the related videos. Captain Pepperspray there was "disciplined" by losing 10 days of vacation time and that was only after people managed to ID him. He even managed to pepperspray his buddies. >.>

[IDrinkaRum]

There is violence at the Occupy DC area too. The following links deal with protests gone wrong during the Americans For Prosperity convention held in Washington, DC this weekend.

Occupy DC/OWS people injure 78-year-old woman who attended Americans For Prosperity convention

Open letter to the Mayor of Washington DC concerning the events that happened during the convention - including protestors unlawfully detaining people inside the building. Also, the protestors brought their children to the protest to protest things they don't know/understand about (at one point a woman with toddlers is lead away).

Michelle Fields of the Daily Caller videotaping the protestors in Occupy DC - including protestors physically keeping a car from moving forward so man with 2-year-old child can't get home to put said child at home. Also shows protestors confronting a different driver because the driver hit 3 protestors - one of them pregnant.

Protestors vs. Car; Car wins, also driver not charged. Eye witnesses say 3 protestors, one of them pregnant, jumped in front of a moving car, at least one person jumped on top of the hood of the car. Protestors injured. Taken to hospital. Driver not charged. Protestors claim driver threw up hands, and put pedal to metal and purposely drove through crowd.

[Andara Bledin]

First off, absent more data, I am reserving judgment on the old woman. Unfortunately, there is only note that she was injured, not how she came to be injured. The lack of detail about the incident is curious. (updated - see below)

As for the protesters vs car: Do you know what happens when a person sees a car about to hit them? They jump. This is the only reason my boss doesn't have a broken leg right now. So of course someone seeing a car gunning at them is going to "jump on the hood." Also, does the idea of a pregnant woman or a 13-year-old boy jumping in front of a car seem more than a little farfetched to anyone else?

Also, what of the man and his dog that were struck? Does violence only count when it's committed by the protesters? In that case, the driver was taken into custody. But without any controversy, manufactured or otherwise, I guess it's just not news.

I also find the apparent glee with which people are reporting the vehicular assault against the protesters to be absolutely sickening.

Article at TBD about the incident with a number of different videos. It's worth noting that the police claim to have video supporting their side of the argument, but unlike the rest of the world, it seems, they don't want to let go of their footage.

I would like to know how it came to be that two adversarial political groups were able to come together without a bit more police intervention to at least keep the intersections clear.

[edit to add]
Article at OccupyProtest.net (note: I have not viewed the videos)

Also, it was most likely Broderick's own people who ended up knocking her to the floor, not the protesters. People behind her were pushing forward, despite the people in front of them having nowhere to go. Past the blockage of protesters were some stairs, that could not be seen from inside the building and that is the reason that she fell. Someone tries to claim that protesters pushed her down the steps, but considering that the only people behind her were there for the dinner, that's pretty much impossible. Good job, Americans for Prosperity. Way to take care of your own.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

Edit: Don't even need the first video anymore.

Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTnOwaTRDog

She was shoved by a convention goer, not a protestor.

Watch him look around and swear and try to blame other people for it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQpSCpgnt4Q&

Second vid also shows the two protestors ( including the pregnant lady ) that were hit by a car and the police let the driver go. The protestors surrounded his car after he ran two people over to detain him for police. Who promptly let him go without even questioning him. Apparently, the second lady shoved down the stairs was shoved by security staff, I'm assuming the Daily Caller didn't mention her because she might be a protestor? ;p

My favourite part about this is right before this when the reporter from the Daily Caller was interviewing protestors, they were all mocking her for making shit up constantly. Then right after that, she makes shit up. >.>

[Andara Bledin]

I find it interesting just how often the stories are being twisted to suit the narrative that the protesters are violent, when they are most of the time the victims.

Why does anyone still believe the reporters after they've been proven to be spreading misinformation time and time again? Is everybody really that lacking in critical thinking? Or are they all just so eager to prove that they were right after all that they don't care that they really aren't and are being used as patsies to spread lies?

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

Why does anyone still believe the reporters after they've been proven to be spreading misinformation time and time again? Is everybody really that lacking in critical thinking? Or are they all just so eager to prove that they were right after all that they don't care that they really aren't and are being used as patsies to spread lies?

Good ol' confirmation bias. They don't want to hear anything except the opinion they already formed, so they tune into the news source that gives them that opinion. -.-

In this case though its pretty damn stupid seeing as there's at least 3-4 video cameras pointed at every single thing that happens.

[IDrinkaRum]

I just saw the first video. With the guy who "pushed" the old woman down? They were trying to get away from the protestors. The protestors who were surrounding them, creating a hostile environment, and unlawfully detaining them. WTF is wrong with those people? Of course I'd be blaming the protestors too. They were in the way. It was an accident on the part of the man who "pushed" the old woman down. If the protestors hadn't been in the way, the woman would never have been in the way and accidentally "pushed" down. If you actually watch the video, it looks like he's trying to break through, not noticing the woman. For all we know the man was claustrophobic, a bunch of people surrounding him, and his fight or flight response kicked in.

Are we exonerating the protestors because what they're doing is "righteous" and the Americans For Prosperity are "rich" people who are "evil" because they oppose the protestors and this convention in DC was a slap in the face of the protestors?

Also, why are the protestors even in the streets of DC? I don't know if anyone on the boards is from the DC area, but I am. I do not drive in to DC. Ever. If I'm going to DC, I take the Metro. Why? The drivers in the District are SCARY. Worse than New York taxi cab drivers (as shown on TV shows and movies) scary. The streets are all different. Many one way, or don't go down this street between 7 and 10 AM unless you're wearing a lemon dress and have purple earrings kind of restrictions. The protestors should never have been in the street. If they want to protest find a sidewalk and occupy that for your protest. Do not get in the way of people driving cars.

[Gravekeeper]

I just saw the first video. With the guy who "pushed" the old woman down? They were trying to get away from the protestors. The protestors who were surrounding them, creating a hostile environment, and unlawfully detaining them.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

The protestors are blockading one exit from the dinner, not surrounding them in the middle of the street. Stupid yes but hardly an "omfg they're going to kill us". The video clearly shows people leaving by the main steps at the exact same time fucknut chooses to shove his way through the protestor line to the right of the main steps instead of exiting straight ahead as the cops are directing.

But instead he goes right and he screams "GET OUT OF THE FUCKING WAY" as he shoves her after fighting his way through a crowd of convention goers before even hitting the protestor line to the right. She's right in front of him, she's facing him, he didn't shove her from behind in an effort to get out. He puts his hands on her and shoved her, it is not an accident. He practically carries her like a battering ram. He's pissed off and doesn't give a shit who he hurts he's also not claustrophobic since he sticks around in the crowd to yell at them afterwards trying to pretend it wasn't him.

Also, why are the protestors even in the streets of DC? I don't know if anyone on the boards is from the DC area, but I am. I do not drive in to DC. Ever. If I'm going to DC, I take the Metro. Why? The drivers in the District are SCARY.

Are you seriously going to argue that people should know beforehand that asshole drivers are going to run them over? So your arguments are seriously "Oh they MADE him hurt an old woman" and "Oh they should have known someone would run them over with no regard for their lives"?

You've got to be kidding me. There are limits to how much you can twist things.

[IDrinkaRum]

Are you seriously arguing that the protestors should be allowed to go ahead and do whatever they want because someone else has to look out for them?

1. Self preservation. I was taught at a young age that drivers of cars will not look out for you so you have to look out for yourself. Roads are made for cars and other vehicles to move along. They were not made for pedestrians to move along at any pace they want to (and that includes stopping and setting up a protesting shop). This is why jaywalkers are blamed when they are hit for not walking in the crosswalk.

2. Why were the protestors surrounding these people? Physically blocking them from leaving the building. They knew they were creating a hostile environment. They wanted to detain these people for whatever reason they had in mind (more than likely to yell at them for being "evil rich people", but that's a guess on my part).

For someone not to see the danger in the actions of the situations is them just being blind.

And did you read the second link I posted in my response? According to the letter writer, the protestors were blocking all the exits. We do not have video footage of the other exits.