Louisiana Outlaws Second-Hand Sales for Cash

[Andara Bledin]

Louisiana has just passed a law that appears to be targeted at destroying the second-hand grey market.

Act 389 (pdf)

This regulation includes the following:

A secondhand dealer shall not enter into any cash transactions in payment for the purchase of junk or used or secondhand property. Payment shall be made in the form of check, electronic transfers, or money order issued to the seller of the junk or used or secondhand property andmade payable to the name and address of the seller. All payments made by check, electronic transfers, or money order shall be reported separately in the daily reports required by R.S. 37:1866.

Among other things, it now requires that every purchase of junk, used, or secondhand property by a business must be accompanied by the business filling out a rather detailed form about who sold them the items, and a signed statement from the seller that the items are theirs to sell. And then it bans the acceptance of cash for any subsequent sale of said merchandise.

Does anyone honestly believe that this will have any impact whatsoever on the frequency and lack of recovery of stolen items? All this will do is get the criminals to take their items out of state to unload them and drive the fences even further underground.

The only people that will be notable affected by such a law are the state's poor, who don't have credit cards or debit cards and who the hell is going to go out and get a money order to buy some cheap used crap found at the local pawn shop?

I'd be less than surprised to find out that this clause isn't even legal and can't wait to hear of it's being struck down with much prejudice.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

Wait, so if I have this right, it basically outlaws paying for cash at a pawn shop/second hand store? Is that even legal? And what about charitable second hand stores like the Salvation Army?

[Andara Bledin]

Oh, no, you can pay cash to non-profit organizations. But only non-profit organizations.

I imagine that is specifically to protect the church rummage sales.

^-.-^

[Jester]

Either I am misreading this or you are.

The only people that will be notable affected by such a law are the state's poor, who don't have credit cards or debit cards and who the hell is going to go out and get a money order to buy some cheap used crap found at the local pawn shop?

Not the way I read the quote from the law or from your commentary on it.

Among other things, it now requires that every purchase of junk, used, or secondhand property by a business must be accompanied by the business filling out a rather detailed form about who sold them the items, and a signed statement from the seller that the items are theirs to sell. And then it bans the acceptance of cash for any subsequent sale of said merchandise.

You say right here that the law bans purchases BY BUSINESSES, not by people FROM businesses. In other words, Acme Pawn can't buy a bunch of used widgets with cash or without the appropriate documentation. This law says nothing about it being illegal for Joe Sixpack or Jane Winecork to buy those widgets from Acme.

Don't believe me? Here, read the same excerpt you provided:

A secondhand dealer shall not enter into any cash transactions in payment for the purchase of junk or used or secondhand property. Payment shall be made in the form of check, electronic transfers, or money order issued to the seller of the junk or used or secondhand property and made payable to the name and address of the seller. All payments made by check, electronic transfers, or money order shall be reported separately in the daily reports required by R.S. 37:1866.

Now it is true that Joe and Jane can't SELL any used widgets they happen to come upon to Acme for cash, but even if they don't have a bank account, money orders are pretty damn easy to cash.

I am not, mind you, saying I agree or disagree with this law. Frankly, I don't get why they're spending time on such things. But it did seem to me as if you were completely misinterpreting it.

[HYHYBT]

Frankly, I don't get why they're spending time on such things.

It's certainly *possible* that this has become a big enough problem there (and has reached the right ears) that something had to be done. And if the paperwork and the ban on cash apply only when the *business* buys items, not when it sells them on, it might be both reasonably effective and reasonably unobtrusive.

[Andara Bledin]

Either I am misreading this or you are.

I do believe you're right, and I misread it.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

Either I am misreading this or you are.

You're right me thinks, it's worded a bit odd at first glance. So basically the business has to now:

1) Get a signed statement of ownership from the seller.
2) The seller's name, address, driver's license number, license plate numbers of the vehicle the seller arrived in, full description of all materials including weight if it is scrap metal or industrial parts.
3) This must be kept on record, in written form, for 3 years and be available for inspection by a police officer at anytime under penalty of a $1000 fine and/or jail time of 1-6 months. They most also provide daily reports.
4) If they fail to obtain the record at all, its $250,000-500,000 fine, but only 1-2 months in jail. So woo?
5) Only pay for items in cheque, money order or electronic transfer.

So this shovels a ton of shit onto second hand businesses, whom I'm sure will be thriled. But only causes inconvience to the customer.

[Andara Bledin]

My contention that the thieves will just head out of state and the fences will just go further underground still stands, however.

It's not like further regulation is going to make them even blink.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

My contention that the thieves will just head out of state and the fences will just go further underground still stands, however.

It's not like further regulation is going to make them even blink.

Pretty much. Just more inconviences for those who are legit. Whilst the ones its designed to counter act won't bat an eyelash.

Kind of like DRM. -.-

[lordlundar]

Umm, this sounds like a pretty big panic over a relatively minor thing. All this reads out to me is typical pawn shop laws that are in existence, nothing more.

[Nyoibo]

It's also going to make it a hell of a lot easier to audit businessess if transactions can't be done in cash.

[Jester]

My contention that the thieves will just head out of state and the fences will just go further underground still stands, however.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Louisiana lawmakers would have no problem with the thieves relocating to another state. Yes, I know that a lot of them would just steal in Louisiana and sell it out of state, but thieves as a group are lazy, and probably wouldn't want to travel that much unless they live near a border to another state. But many would just say screw it and move on to greener pastures. But overall, I would bet that the lawmakers would say that this would be a positive outcome.

It's also going to make it a hell of a lot easier to audit businessess if transactions can't be done in cash.

Transactions CAN be done in cash. Just not transactions involving the purchase of junk or second hand items by the business.

[HYHYBT]

Seeing this again after reading today of a historical marker stolen apparently for its scrap value, it sounds less like a bad idea.

It at least would cut down on theft in areas not near the border.

[Andara Bledin]

Probably not. You'd most likely just have an industry of people who would move material from the interior to outside the border, instead.

^-.-^

[Panacea]

Louisiana has just passed a law that appears to be targeted at destroying the second-hand grey market.

Does anyone honestly believe that this will have any impact whatsoever on the frequency and lack of recovery of stolen items? All this will do is get the criminals to take their items out of state to unload them and drive the fences even further underground.

I'd be less than surprised to find out that this clause isn't even legal and can't wait to hear of it's being struck down with much prejudice.

^-.-^

I'd say this law is targeted at closing a loophole by requiring junk shops to adhere to the same laws pawnshops do. It's meant to cut off a market for burglarized goods. However, I doubt it will work much better than that law does with pawnshops.

The OTHER thing this law will do, however, is establish a paper trail for taxation purposes. You see, you're supposed to declare the sale of used goods as regular income (yard sales are exempted in most states).

Oh, no, you can pay cash to non-profit organizations. But only non-profit organizations.

I imagine that is specifically to protect the church rummage sales.

^-.-^

I agree.

You're right me thinks, it's worded a bit odd at first glance. So basically the business has to now:

So this shovels a ton of shit onto second hand businesses, whom I'm sure will be thriled. But only causes inconvience to the customer.

And will be handily ignored, unless the "dealer" has a storefront. Lots of "dealers" don't. There's a guy down the street from me who has a perpetual yardsale to avoid having to get a business license or rent a store, or pay taxes.

My contention that the thieves will just head out of state and the fences will just go further underground still stands, however.

It's not like further regulation is going to make them even blink.

^-.-^

They'll find another way, that's for sure. The sober ones will simply move to Craigslist. The ones who steal just to get high will probably find a willing buyer somehow, or simply trade the good stuff for drugs. The dealers will then sell it on Craigslist.