Are the ocuppier protestors naive?

[IDrinkaRum]

Vladimir Jaffe, who grew up in Russia under Socialism/Communism, and then moved to America, interviews some of the OWS (?) people

Mr. Jaffe is now a business man, a Tea Party member, and a Jew. He explains what it's like (a little) to live under Socialism, and doesn't understand why anyone would want to live like that.

FTR, I have a friend of mine who grew up in Ethiopia. When the King was deposed and Socialism was brought to that country. She doesn't want Socialism brought here. She lived under it enough growing up. With its uncertainties. With its harsh conditions. She hopes people will their head out of their asses and wake up and smell the coffee (so to speak).

ETA: Another video with the same people. I think at the end, they asked if he was racist. A Russian Jew. Being racist. I think my brain broke.

Che Guevara and Joseph Stalin did not kill anyone.

Also, I had family who fled Russia during the Bolshevik Revolution and move to America because they didn't believe in what the Bolsheviks stood for. Some extended family stayed, and then tried to leave when they realized how bad it was. I also worked with a former Major in the KGB - Victor Sheymov - who left Russia because he wanted a better life for him and and his family and he knew Socialism/Communism wouldn't give them that.

[HYHYBT]

So, then: there's nothing *between*? Any change whatsoever means becoming the Soviet Union?

[Rageaholic]

Must resist urge to make "In Soviet Russia" joke.

Okay, those particular people are clueless morons, but surely we can have a fairer system. When ever someone suggests that extreme capitalism isn't the answer, we immediatly jump on the "OMG SOCIALIST DICTATORSHIP!!" bandwagon. Communism may fail in practice, but the basic idea isn't as evil as it seems. While I wouldn't want to live in a socialist dictatorship, I don't think a little government regulation to even the playing field would hurt things. It's not the same thing.

[Canarr]

This baffles me. Do Americans not realize that there are many developed countries in the world that are nothing like the Soviet Union, but also nothing like the USA?

Personally, I like living in Germany.

I like having - by law - a minimum of 26 paid vacation days per year. I like being able to visit a doctor when I'm sick, without having to worry whether or not my employer will terminate me as a result. I like it that the mother and father of a newborn baby have three years of (unpaid) maternity leave to split between them as they see fit, after which their employer is required to offer them their old job or a suitable equivalent. Oh, and yes: during that time, they do have health insurance. I like the fact that our real estate market is stable, and we don't have millions of families with a mortgage higher than the value of their home.

Does that mean I live in a Socialist county? I don't think so. Our current government is christian-conservative; aside from Gerhard Schröder's two-term stint as our Chancellor, Germany has been ruled by conservatives for 30 years. Social equality, social fairness, is *not* the same as Socialism.

Yeah, we have our problems. We have our ups and downs, our Haves and Have-nots. But it's nowhere near as bad as the situation in the US, and improving the situation in the US will *not* result in the US becoming a Communist country. That's just bullshit that the 1% in your country has been filing your ears with for decades. And apparently, it's been working.

[Kyree]

I guess I'm naive for wanting to actually be able to go to the doctor when I'm sick. I'd love for ONE OUT OF MY THREE jobs to have health insurance. I need to go to the dentist to get my wisdom teeth removed, but I can't afford it. I don't have a couple thousand dollars laying around, since that's how much it costs without insurance.

It's pretty bad when my husband and I are both seriously considering moving away from the US in a few years, if nothing changes.

[the_std]

Okay, IDaR, you do realize there's a difference between totalitarian socialism (Soviet Russia, socialist Ethiopia) and first world socialism, like, oh, I dunno, CANADA, right? Do you hear anyone in Canada complaining about bleak conditions, harsh rulers and genocide within this century? No? Because America will not end up like Soviet-era Russia if they do go down the path to socialism. It will not happen. You will end up like us, or maybe a European country, like Canarr points out.

This article is nothing but pure scare tactics and gotcha journailsm. I'm almost insulted for your countrymen that ANYONE would take it seriously.

Edit: I came back because I had to add how infuriating the assumptions in this article are.

I have never had a subject anger me as much as this one has. Does anyone actually believe that one of the most powerful, democratic countries in the world would actually end up like Soviet Russia? A country that went straight from monarchy to totalitarian regime? A country that had never really experienced the freedom of democracy the way that America has ever since it was founded? Do you, IDaR, truly believe that could happen? The journalist who wrote this piece of schlock and the people who consider it valid and acceptable journalism make me want to vomit. How stuck up their asses are they? Do they not realize that the majority of first world countries would be considered socialist? And yet very few atrocities, genocides or loss of major freedoms have ever been attributed to said socialism. So the Republican talking heads of America should take a look around and realize that they're not special fucking snowflakes, what is good for the goose (the rest of the goddamn world) is good for the gander (them) and that they are hurting their people with their elitism and "mine mine MINE!" sense of economics.

[Hyena Dandy]

The ones who actually want to go to a full communist system are naive, the ones who want a complete government overhall are naive, and the ones who think that they'll accomplish something without doing anything BEYOND sitting in the park are naive*. Actually, beyond that, I think a lot of them are a bit naive but that doesn't make them wrong.


*Not saying that that's what all of them are doing, just what some are doing.

[Andara Bledin]

A Russian Jew. Being racist. I think my brain broke.

Speaking of naive...

There is nothing about being a minority that stops a person from being an ignorant bigot. The fact that you think it's ridiculous only speaks to your lack of experience.

The most bone-deep racist person I have ever met was a black woman from Africa. Everything that she ever had to say about people was filled with a casual hatred that's scary in it's totality and how much she took for granted that all white people (except for those she worked with... maybe) were evil bastards out to get her and all other black people. She believed that with the same sort of lack of thought as the rest of us believe in gravity; to her, it was a law of physics that "whitey" was out to get her and her people. Oh, yeah, and American blacks weren't "real" blacks, either, and received nearly as much vitriol as everyone else.

As for socialism, the idea that America would end up like Soviet Russia just because we enact socialist programs is laughable. We already have many socialist programs in operation and have for most of the last century.

But, wonder of wonders, those socialist programs haven't cause the government to take over. It's the capitalist programs that have threatened the well-being of this country.

^-.-^

[IDrinkaRum]

I guess I'm naive for wanting to actually be able to go to the doctor when I'm sick. I'd love for ONE OUT OF MY THREE jobs to have health insurance. I need to go to the dentist to get my wisdom teeth removed, but I can't afford it. I don't have a couple thousand dollars laying around, since that's how much it costs without insurance.

It's pretty bad when my husband and I are both seriously considering moving away from the US in a few years, if nothing changes.

Good luck with finding doctors who are taking insurance anymore. Obamacare might fully be coming in 2014 (barring the states breaking it apart/down), but doctors are finding loopholes to get out it. Mainly by not accepting insurance. At all.

Yes, there are doctors out there who have decided rather than go with Obamacare (and the doctors I've talked to in different specialties - cardiology, pulminology, developmental pediatrics, etc. - all object to Obamacare) they are saying they are no longer going to accept insurance. In any form. The developmental pediatrician who diagnosed daughter with autism? Went from working with the Children's National Medical Center to private practice, charges $250 per visit, and accepts no insurance. At all. You might have a chance of paying up front and then asking the insurance company to reimburse you, but from conversations with parents who have tried that ... they're SOL.

Then there are the doctors who are not accepting Medicare/Medicaid any longer. My father is going to have to find a new Primary Care doctor come the new year as the doctor doesn't accept Medicare.

As for me?

I think the Occupy Wall Street people need to do something, anything other than sit around a park, waving signs, praising the glories of a mythical utopia that has never been found in the world. They are naive.

Nothing in this world is free.

Everything comes with a price.

As for the people accusing Vladimir Jaffe of being a racist? I never head Mr. Jaffe say anything racist. At all in what he was saying. They assumed he was racist because ... why? He supports capitalism? He's a businessman? He's not joining them in their protest?

People escaped Russia (and other countries) to come to America. Because of the capitalist society we have. Where you can come and make something of yourself. America, believe it or not, is a good country.

It's just a shame people are too blind, too selfish, and want everything now, now, now without working for it first.

I hope someday to become part of the 1%. And you know what? In this country, I can aspire to it. I can work for it. And I have the freedom to do that. Anyone who wants to stand in my way, and say "no", those who are wealthy already and want Americans to all of a sudden share the wealth? They are the most selfish of all. "See! I made all this money. But none of you can. I don't want you succeeding. I want to keep you down." And that is bad.

[the_std]

IDaR, you completely and totally failed to answer my question.

Do you truly believe that, if America were to embrace socialism, it would be the totalitarian socialism of Russia and Ethiopia and other such oppressed regimes? Do you believe what this article is saying? Do you believe that people like Mr Jaffe are warning people of something that is a real and present danger to the America people like this article is making it seem?

[Nyoibo]

Must resist urge to make "In Soviet Russia" joke.

Shoosh you, don't get me started.

I think at the end, they asked if he was racist. A Russian Jew. Being racist. I think my brain broke.

Being Russian and a Jew have nothing to do with whether or not he can be racists

People escaped Russia (and other countries) to come to America. Because of the capitalist society we have. Where you can come and make something of yourself. America, believe it or not, is a good country.

No they didn't, they went to America and Australia and other places because it wasn't the middle of a war zone, it had nothing to do with the fact that they were capitalist countries and everything to do with the fact that they were countries in relative peace.

[smileyeagle1021]

IDaR, I can completely agree with you that total socialism would be bad... however, uncontrolled capitalism isn't much better, we'd just trade an oppressive government for an oppressive oligarchy of corporations (and to some extent we already have).
Last year HBO did a documentary on tort reform, this is capitalism at work, major corporations trying to remove legal protections from individuals. I think some laws have changed since the release of that documentary (it's call Hot Coffee), but at least at one point in time, corporations had succeeded in limiting their liability for damages in Ohio to 1.5million... doesn't matter if they cause 6million dollars in damage (and we aren't talking pain and suffering or punitive damages, we are talking about medical malpractice where the estimated ongoing medical costs are conservatively estimated to 6million), they only have to pay 1.5million. Corporations have no problem smearing the people they have wronged. "Coffee lady" as so many people call her, suffered third degree burns from coffee served at between 185 to 190 degrees in a cup with a lid that McDonalds had received over 700 complaints of burns caused by the lid falling off because it did not fit properly... and she never asked for punitive damages, the jury decided that it was appropriate to award them since McDonalds was refusing to right their wrong, all she asked for was for her medical bills to be paid. Ultimately a judge reduced the punitive damages, and after paying her attorney, she probably saw none of it. Oh, the money she got to pay her medical bills, capitalism doesn't allow that, that is a socialist ideal, capitalism says that you do what you can to increase capital and paying medical bills because you had an unsafe product does not increase capital.
Capitalism may have the best opportunities, but socialism offers the best protections (when not being run by a corrupt ruling class, which we have safeguards against), the trick is to balance them.

[AdminAssistant]

Judging by my friends who have studied in Russia, the people there (generally) are extremely racist, xenophobic, and homophobic.

I personally envy Canada's system. I know it isn't perfect, but the ability to go to the doctor, dentist, optometrist, etc. would be amazing. I'm three years overdue for an eye exam, Fiance has cavities and possibly a wisdom tooth. My health issues in May/June cost me ~$1500...and I have insurance! If I hadn't had insurance...there's no telling how much it would have cost. I'm going to need another ultrasound in the spring...that's another $200 or so. It's so stressful, and it doesn't have to be this way.

And don't give me any bullshit about saving money. Our government has proven that saving money is not the biggest concern. Place like Planned Parenthood save the US and state governments millions of dollars every year through the prevention of unwanted pregnancies, and the government's putting them out of business. It's stupid, elitist, moralistic, Christian bullshit.

[Andara Bledin]

It's interesting how many businesses fight against even a mixed economy.

But, then, it's in their best interests to push for a capitalist agenda, since they are, by definition capitalist to the core.

But pure capitalism doesn't work any better than pure socialism, and for the same reason: People are greedy assholes. After all, the current economic woes were brought about by unfettered capitalistic activities.

To think that either one is superior is the truly naive standpoint. What we need is to have balance. A proper mixed economic system will be to the benefit of both the businessman and the individual, and it is only when both sides prosper that the nation they inhabit will prosper.

^-.-^

[bara]

Good luck with finding doctors who are taking insurance anymore. Obamacare might fully be coming in 2014 (barring the states breaking it apart/down), but doctors are finding loopholes to get out it. Mainly by not accepting insurance. At all.

Then there are going to be a lot of unemployed doctors if they stop taking insurance.

My mom and I were involved in an auto accident. Ive seen her medical bills... DAMN


When a doctor will charge in excess of 300 to 400 dollars just to look at an x-ray, there is something wrong. Literally, these people didnt do anything except look. Prescriptions totalling over 1000 dollars. Hospital stays in excess of...30,000. Costs of the xrays, mri's, over 6000. Equipment rentals, 1000. Ambulance rides 2000 dollars. Skilled nursing facility 6000. (She was in the hospital less than a week)
All in all, last I added it up it was approaching 100,000 dollars.

I dont want to imagine what the costs would have been had she required surgery.

The above costs are among the things OWS is protesting against and a shining example of why healthcare for profit is bullshit. Im not saying doctors and nurses should not be able to make a comfortable living. But how much of those costs are going into the pockets of the CEOs, Boards of directors, basically people that already have so much they couldnt spend it all if they lived another thousand years?

Being without insurance myself right now, I would have had to file for bankruptcy had I been injured.

How many people could have been provided healthcare with the money that went to bailout those companies that were failing due to thier own ineptitude and fraudulently criminal behavior?

That was a socialist choice, not a capitalist one. (and wrong in my opinion but that is for another thread)