Sliding scale of corporal punishment versus abuse.

[Rageaholic]

There's been a lot of controversy over corporal punishment and the more questionable methods some parents use to discipline their children. Now obviously, I think we can all agree that if a parent causes actual physical injury (broken bones, internal bleeding, or any other physical harm), they are abusive assholes who should not be anywhere near children.

On the other hand, there are other methods of discipline that may not be as lethal, but still pretty damn painful (I'd imagine). Getting beat with a belt, switch, or whatever kind of instrument could be pretty traumatizing. Some seem to think it's okay and others say it's abusive. I tend to lean toward the latter category. The worst corporal punishment I got were a few smacks. Nothing that left marks or hurt, but was more of a dope slap. I was actually more afraid of having priveledges taken away than anything else they could have done.

And for that reason, I really fail to see the point. Maybe I'm different, but the worst thing you could have done to me as a kid was no TV for a weak. That got me to straighten up. Otherwise, I see corporal punishment as nothing more than using physical threats to gain cooperation, something that if done to anyone else would get them arrested. Why should it be any different with kids? ESPECIALLY since kids are pretty much helpless. Worse is that I see some comments claiming that once kids reach a certain age, they are too old for physical punishment. WTF?

With that said, I don't think every parent who uses corporal punishment is abusive. There is obviously a line. Also, physical abuse isn't the only kind of abuse (I know emotional and verbal abuse can be extremely devestating). There are a lot of factors, and it's probably a YMMV thing depending on the person, but for now I don't really have to write all my thoughts down at once.

But I do want to say that if I hear someone say "no corporal punishment is the reason the world is going to hell", I will scream. These people say this as if it's the ONLY way to get kids to listen and I want to reach through my computer and bop them in the head; not just for irony's sake, but to knock some sense into them.

[Kheldarson]

Punishment and discipline of any type is about the individual child. My mom and I didn't get along. Any punishment meted out by her was routinely rebelled against. Including corporal. But I tell you what, her threatening the belt made me think twice about what I was doing more than any other punishment.

Then again, I have a slight fear of my mother and her anger at this point. So that's a major downside. We're working on it (space between two alpha females is a good thing), but how much of it was personality conflict and how much the fact that I never want her to hit me again? I don't know.

I do know some people behave well with threats of the removal of some favored objects or activities. Others respond better to the physical punishment. Parents should try all methods in order to find out what works best with each child, IMO.

[Mongo Skruddgemire]

On the one hand, I am a firm believer in a short, swift swat to the behind. It does not hurt as much as the crying would make one think. They are not crying out of pain, but because they got a negative consequence to their actions.

Same thing holds true with a slap on the hand for grabby fingers. No real pain to speak of, just the fact that Mommy and/or Daddy meted out the wrath of God upon them. Or how it seems to them.

But I've seen it go overboard. When I do it, it's just one sharp swat and that's meted out with a calm and emotionless demeanor. The ones that worry me are the ones who hit over and over again and look as if they have finally let their frustrations get the better of them and they just go fucking nuts on the kid's ass.

Punishment should not be meted out from a position of strong emotions. Too easy to cross the line.

As for the stronger stuff? Mixed feelings on that one. I at the tender age of three ignored my grandmother's rules and played with a rifle. Took the bolt of it and everything. I am told that the spanking was prodigious and I did not sit down comfortably for a day and a half. Over done? Perhaps. Did I ever play with that rifle again? Nope. I didn't even touch the gun again until I turned 30 and she gave it to me since the retirement home had a dim view on guns. Only then did I finally understand my fear of that gun. Owned plenty of my own...that one just scared the bejeebus out of me.

That was also my first and only spanking I ever got as a child. One well done punishment meant that from that day forth, my full name was enough to get me to stop what I was doing and instantly go into "Very Good Boy" mode.

But again it is how it was done. In my case it was not abuse or abusive (my ass might think otherwise...) but I've also seen children come into the Emergency room with their parents and leave with stitches and with Child Protective Services.

How much is too much and where is the line between punishment and abuse? That's a tough question.

I will say this however. I've seen far too many people who don't hit their kids and do the new-age "touchy-feely" forms of discipline where they try and explain to children as if they were logical Vulcan adults as to why their behavior is bad. That's the child(ren) who make our lives a living hell (and in the case of one Customers Suck story of mine, made me need a knee brace again) because their parents are just jerking off for all the good it does to correct their bad behavior.

It's rough. Since no one can agree on anything...we live in a world of confusion where we are torn between a child who are testing the limits of what they can get away with (as all kids do as part of their healthy development stages) and society who is increasingly hostile to any and all forms of punishment that could establish those limits.

[bara]

One of the major issues I see when people are raising kids is that they dont follow through with punishments.

Ground the kid for two weeks and letting them off after one or two days. Taking the Xbox away and then giving it right back. A good swat on the behind gets thier attention, nothing more. A slittle slap on the hands is extremely effective when a child is reaching for something, like glasses, that they shouldnt (must be coupled with a strong NO for best effect). This little slap need be nothing more than a swift pushing of the childs hand. It doesnt need to cause the least bit of pain.

But rules must be upheld consistently. Bed times, chores, and expectations for behavior and school work must be reinforced. Letting a child slack in english because they are good at math. Letting them stay up late because a show is on they want to watch. Letting homework go because its friday evening and letting them put it off till sunday is not a good idea.

One of the most important rules of raising kids... the parents must back each other up. There is nothing that irks me more than the phrase 'when your father gets home!'. Why wait for dad? Or mom as the case may be. Corrective action must be taken immediately else it serves no purpose.

[Kheldarson]

One of the most important rules of raising kids... the parents must back each other up. There is nothing that irks me more than the phrase 'when your father gets home!'. Why wait for dad? Or mom as the case may be. Corrective action must be taken immediately else it serves no purpose.

My mom used this. But it was reserved for the really bad things. Like I got in massive trouble at school things. She'd set out my punishment, but dad was going to be delivering the spanking. So part of the punishment was waiting in my room, completely grounded, for my dad to show up. Which probably wouldn't be for several hours.

[bara]

Right, but you were being punished before dad got home. I was refering to the instances in which kid is not punished at all and so one of the parents is always the 'bad guy'.

[Rageaholic]

Here are (IMHO) times when I believe it crosses the line into abuse.

-Being punished over little things. Like how some of those super religious parents who used the Pearl method of discipline. Every little mistake the kid makes gets met with spanking, not a little swat, but actual over the lap spanking. I can't find the story, but I recall one person who grew up in a house like that and was forced to the perfect little angle, never to cry or show any displeasure. If she didn't live up to that perfect standard, she would recieve a "spanking ritual". It was one of the most depressing and angering things I've read. Hell, I don't even think you need to threaten physical punishment when you're that strict. Just looking at the tiger moms and their extremely high standards is enough to make me despair. So basically, don't expect perfection or have exceedingly high standards. That's just not healthy. Let them be a kid with REALISTIC and REASONABLE expectations.

-Excessive or prolonged corporal punishment. Also encouraged in those spanking books from what I can tell. A couple of swats and let it be done, don't make a ritual out of it. Like in the Judge William Adams video. He lashes her like 5 times at the start, HARD, and enough to make her cry, which is already excessive as it is. If he really wanted to go down the corporal punishment route, wouldn't 1 or 2 lashes have gotten the message across? At this point, I think he went overboard and I would hope most fathers would have had a "My God What Have I Done" moment. But if it had ended there, the video wouldn't have been an outrageous as it was. No because she won't "bend over the fucking bed", he has to keep hitting and hitting her at least 12 more times over the span of 7 minutes. At which point it becomes borderline torture.

-Verbal abuse, threats, and humilation. Again with Judge William Adams. When you're talking about beating someone into submission, you've crossed the line. And this was after he had already lashed her 15 times. And that brings up another point, what was the point of him wanting her to “bend over” when he had already lashed her several times? To me it sounded more like wanting control over her than anything. It wasn’t enough to have her in tears, he wanted total control over her for those five minutes. Then there’s the taunting “YOU WANT SOME MORE?”, the threats “If you even look at me wrong”, and the downright creepy “Take it like a grown woman”.

-Then there’s the hypocritical. Like in this video of of an uncle giving his nephew an “ass whoopin” for acting tough on facebook. Not as disturbing or enraging as the other, but still facepalm worthy. He’s angry at the kid for acting tough and what does he do? Act tough while humiliating his nephew on camera. Yeah great message you’re sending him.

-And lastly, if you’re leaving scars, bruises, or broken bones, you’ve probably crossed the line.

So yeah, I don’t think everyone who uses corporal punishment is necessarly abusive (at least not intentionally), it’s when certain lines are crossed. If the kids are living in fear or there is an excessive sense of control, then lines are crossed. Just my two cents and I don’t really have all the answers, but I think I at least have an idea.

Here’s another question, it’s common for parents to lose their temper with their kids, but when does that cross the line? How many times can they lose their temper before they are unhealthy parents? Just more food for thought.

[Lace Neil Singer]

My parents used smacking as a last resort, for very bad behaviour, and it was always just a swat on the butt given with the hand. One smack, and then sending to one's room. I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I got smacked as a child; just the threat of getting a smack was enough to drive the point home after the first time. I do not fear my parents as a result; however, unlike a lot of kids I've personally witnessed in public, I do respect them. During my years in retail, I've seen kids swearing at their parents and even a few hitting them. There is no way I'd ever have dared do either to my parents; I had too much respect.

Smacking should never be done in the heat of the moment or in anger, and shouldn't be a flurry of smacks given out, and not with a weapon. Some people might disagree with me, but I think using a shoe, belt or wooden spoon crosses the line. I laugh at the idea that you can reason with very small kids, who's brains haven't developed enough to be able to understand reasoning. You might as well sit down with a puppy and try and reason with it to get it to stop peeing on the floor.

[Eisa]

My dad would spank me...usually with his belt as hard as he could, and I wouldn't be able to sit down for ages, would have bruises, and my upper legs would be bruised, too. (According to my aunt, this was fine. ) He'd also give me love taps on my arms, slap my face, grab my arms so hard they'd bruise, slam me into the wall, threw me down the hallway on one occasion, and shoved me into the bathroom wall so I hit my head really hard and blacked out.

Y'know, all I really learned from all that was my dad was an unpredictable asshole, and that I had to try and be perfect to his standards. Nothing about what was actually right or wrong, because his standards of right and wrong are apparently a lot different from the rest of the world's. Not to mention calling me a stupid, worthless, good-for-nothing if I dared come home with a bad grade (which could be a B). Yep. Great parenting, Dad!



If you're leaving marks (unless your child bruises as soon as you look at him/her, but then you should be super careful and probably use something other than corporal punishment, anyway), it's abuse.

I think pretty much if you're disciplining and acting like the child is bad, as opposed to the child's behavior is bad, it's wrong and you're hurting them, whether or not it can be actually classified as abuse.

[tropicsgoddess]

If it leaves welts,injuries of any kind and any other marks other than stinging rosiness, it's abuse in my eyes.

If my kids acted up I'd spank then with my hands like a swat to their butt but that's it. Other than that take away privileges from them.

[Rageaholic]

Eisa:

I don't know what to say. That Judge doesn't sound so bad now...