UC Davis pepper sprays seated protestors

[Rageaholic]

If they were, is that a reason for corporal punishment?

University police force? What are their legal limits? Where do they come in the scheme of things - between police and vigilantes?

Rapscallion

I don't think so. Though I can at least see why the cops were annoyed, potentially blinding someone is dangerous, stupid, and disproportionate to the situation at hand.

[Greenday]

University police force? What are their legal limits? Where do they come in the scheme of things - between police and vigilantes?

They are police. It's no different from a town having a local police force.

[BlaqueKatt]

would have been less likely to cause occular damage.

potentially blinding someone is dangerous, stupid, and disproportionate to the situation at hand.

apparently not many people understand how pepper spray works

As soon as the pepper spray hits you, your eyes will involuntarily close, tear up, and begin burning. But don’t panic: studies have shown that while debilitating, the effects of pepper spray on your eyes is harmless and produces no long-term effects. As your eyes close, you will begin coughing. The cough will be excruciating, but temporary. You might suffer from restricted breathing, inflamed skin, and become awkwardly uncoordinated. All of these effects will last anywhere from twenty minutes to an hour but will not be fatal.

[Rapscallion]

They are police. It's no different from a town having a local police force.

Bit of a culture shock here. See, over here we have several police forces that act in separate, yet contiguous, areas. They answer to the government, who sets policies.

From what you're saying, an area can declare its own police force? How about its own rules and laws? How does this fit in with the whole state and federal layers of law enforcement? Who has jurisdiction?

Who watches the watchmen?

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

Regarding the chancellor, it appears that the protest was held, at least in part, to call for the resignation.

As for pepper spray, while it is safe in most instances, and certainly safer than other forms of physical defense when dealing with a violent opponent, there have also been multiple cases of deaths directly caused by the effects of pepper spray being used on those with asthma. In the UC Davis incident, at least one protester had to go to the emergency room for that reason.

It really doesn't matter whether it's safe or not when it's use was never called for.

^-.-^

[Greenday]

Bit of a culture shock here. See, over here we have several police forces that act in separate, yet contiguous, areas. They answer to the government, who sets policies.

From what you're saying, an area can declare its own police force? How about its own rules and laws? How does this fit in with the whole state and federal layers of law enforcement? Who has jurisdiction?

Who watches the watchmen?

Rapscallion

Well, there are federal laws, state laws, local ordinances. We have local PD, which just enforce laws within a town. Then we have state troopers, who enforce laws throughout the state. Then we have stuff like the FBI, ATF, etc.. It allows for some standardization of laws across the board (federal) while allowing different cultures to edit laws based on the locals.

[Nyoibo]

apparently not many people understand how pepper spray works

I understand quite well how it works and I support its use most of the time, but my mother ended up in hospital after walking through and are where pepper spray had been used something like 15-20 minutes earlier.

[bara]

Pepper spray can cause people who have a pre-existing condition to go into respiratory arrest. Its rare but it happens.
It can also desensitize the eyes which can allow other objects such as contact lenses or larger dust particle to cause damage.

Source here

I am not against the use of pepper spray as a non-lethal means as the the possible side effects are rare, but because those side effects do exist, more discretion should be used when implementing them.

[Panacea]

Maybe I'm being dense, but why should the chancellor step down because of the actions of the police?

The police were campus police. The chancellor is ultimately responsible for everything that happens on her campus.

Someone gave those cops authorization to use pepper spray. I highly doubt they used it on their own.

Not to justify what the cops did, but were the protestors blocking something? It looked like they were blocking the path.

The campus police were taking down tents of the protestors. The protestors encircled them, seated with arms locked. However, the retreat of the police was not blocked. All they had to do was pick up or step over the protestors. And there were other police outside the circle readily available to assist those officers.

If they were, is that a reason for corporal punishment?

University police force? What are their legal limits? Where do they come in the scheme of things - between police and vigilantes?

Rapscallion

A campus or university police force is almost always made up of certified police officers who hold state licensed police powers. They sometimes also employed non-certified, non-sworn officers who are unarmed and do not have arrest authority. Sworn officers are graduates of a police academy, have experience on the streets (they don't usually take rookies), and have all the powers of any sworn officer. They are often retired cops, though not always. They will often respond off campus to assist other local agencies. Some towns will make agreements with college police forces to patrol areas near campus, since a high concentration of students tend to live in those areas (UNC Greensboro has such an agreement in Greensboro NC).

apparently not many people understand how pepper spray works

Pepper spray can cause respiratory arrest in people with per-existing respiratory conditions such as severe asthma or COPD. Also, the spray is in a pressurized can; if pointed too close to an eye the force of the spray can cause serious ocular injuries including but not limited to corneal injuries and retinal detachment (which can cause blindness). The officers are seen pulling student's heads up and spraying directly into their faces.

From what you're saying, an area can declare its own police force? How about its own rules and laws? How does this fit in with the whole state and federal layers of law enforcement? Who has jurisdiction?

Who watches the watchmen?

See my response above. No area can "declare" its own police force. It has to have authority from the state to do so, usually because it is an incorporated town or county. In the case of state owned colleges and universities, the campus is the property of the state and the state has a vested interest in policing it. In other instances, private colleges apply for a license. Their police are certified by the state and answerable to state authority if they exceed their state police powers.

The US Supreme Court recently ruled that a private, Christian based college here in North Carolina's police officers can stop a suspected DUI driver, field test him, and arrest him on campus and that they are not ecumenical authorities (which would be a violation of the separation of church and state).

[Rapscallion]

That makes more sense, thanks.

Rapscallion

[Shangri-laschild]

The police were campus police. The chancellor is ultimately responsible for everything that happens on her campus.

Someone gave those cops authorization to use pepper spray. I highly doubt they used it on their own.

They may have had authority to use pepper spray in certain situations but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were following policy for this incident.

From what you're saying, an area can declare its own police force? How about its own rules and laws? How does this fit in with the whole state and federal layers of law enforcement? Who has jurisdiction?

A campus or university police force is almost always made up of certified police officers who hold state licensed police powers. They sometimes also employed non-certified, non-sworn officers who are unarmed and do not have arrest authority. Sworn officers are graduates of a police academy, have experience on the streets (they don't usually take rookies), and have all the powers of any sworn officer. They are often retired cops, though not always. They will often respond off campus to assist other local agencies. Some towns will make agreements with college police forces to patrol areas near campus, since a high concentration of students tend to live in those areas (UNC Greensboro has such an agreement in Greensboro NC).

The community college campus police department I work at works with the same laws as city and state. When we write tickets for people to appear in front of a judge, it's the same judges and court times that city uses as well. Same goes for the university police department in the city I live in. As far as my department, we have jurisdiction on our campus and if for instance we had to go find a student at their home because of an incident on campus, we would let city know as a courtesy but we would be the ones to go. If city needed to find a student of ours on campus, they would come see us first. I'm not as clear on the lines with the university police and city.

I think the types of officers hired depends on the area. Here, both my department and the university hire the same as regular police departments meaning a range of people who have been police before to people who have not. My department has a couple of security guards, one who is a retired cop but a lot of our officers started out as officers here rather than elsewhere. Both departments send their officers to the training school that city police go to as well. While my department doesn't tend to do too many assists off campus for the most part (we don't have dorms and only have two small off campus facilities) the officers can legally pull someone over on city streets.

While the president of our college may have some say in our department policies, when it comes to things like Use of Force and such he doesn't have as much say.

[Seifer]

What makes me angry is that the students have no right to defend themselves under the law. The police officer is spraying pepper spray into their faces and eyes. If they so much as lift a hand to push him away - BOOM! They're now charged with assault on a police officer.

Oh they were protecting themselves, you say? Well, if they hadn't been resisting arrest in the first place, they would have had no need to defend themselves. FULL-PROOF LOGIC (TM)

When exactly did police officers become gods of our country?

[bara]

When exactly did police officers become gods of our country?

When people started putting up with it.

[Canarr]

What makes me angry is that the students have no right to defend themselves under the law. The police officer is spraying pepper spray into their faces and eyes. If they so much as lift a hand to push him away - BOOM! They're now charged with assault on a police officer.

Is that really so?

Under German Law, self-defense applies to any reasonable action taken against a current, ongoing, *unlawful* attack. Meaning, yes, if a police officer is trying to lawfully arrest and cuff you, it is not possible to claim self-defense when fighting him off. However, if the same officer came up to you and started dousing you with pepper spray (which would be unlawful if done without provocation), you could fight back within the boundaries of self-defense.

Don't know how that works in the US, of course. But, seeing how that officer (Lt. Pike?) actually stepped over the sitting students, without any of them making a move to block or interrupt him, THEN turned around to spray them, I don't think anybody can seriously claim that they needed to use the pepper spray in order to clear their way. This was just a "Screw you stupid kids, I'm gonna show you!" move - and THAT should definitely be AT LEAST a couple of assault charges.

[Panacea]

What makes me angry is that the students have no right to defend themselves under the law. The police officer is spraying pepper spray into their faces and eyes. If they so much as lift a hand to push him away - BOOM! They're now charged with assault on a police officer.

Oh they were protecting themselves, you say? Well, if they hadn't been resisting arrest in the first place, they would have had no need to defend themselves. FULL-PROOF LOGIC (TM)

When exactly did police officers become gods of our country?

In spite of the actions of some police officers lately, most police officers in the United States are professional, care about their communities, and are generally good people. I've worked extensively with law enforcement: first as a student lot attendant in college, later as a correctional nurse, and still later as an ER nurse. I've also had two roommates who were cops.

So I have a pretty good idea what they put up with, what their responsibilities are, and their limits. I have a lot of respect for most cops, and am pro cop in most instances.

But I don't approve of some of the actions in recent protests, to wit the shooting of a non violent protester in the head with a tear gas cannister, and the pepper spray incident.

But these incidents were, IMHO, driven by higher ups who wanted the protests to end and sent in the beat cops to end them without regard to the consequences.

If you are assaulted by a police officer, you DO have the right to use reasonable force to protect yourself. Which amounts to pushing the officer off of you, possibly striking him if he is escalating (ie using a weapon), even if he uses a gun (a cop cannot enter your home without a warrant, and the castle doctrine applies in many places, especially if the cop does not identify himself).

That being said, cops are generally taken at their word by the courts which means you'd better have some pretty strong evidence on your side if you get in a fight with a cop. Other cops will automatically take his side and look at the fact later, so it's a good way to get dog piled by the cops.

It's better just to cooperate and let them put the cuffs on you. if the arrest is unjustified, you can always file a complaint later.