Babies on demand!

[FormerCallingCardRep]

I am going to weigh in with my own experience.

My first pregnacy I went into labor at 32 weeks and they stopped my labor. When they took me off the medicine to keep my uterus calm I had problems with my contractions being too week and they gave me a little pitocin to make the contractions stronger and more productive. After 36 hours of labor, my first Daughter was born by c-section. She had the cord wrapped around her neck, under her arm and around her neck again.

My second pregnacy I was scheduled for a c-section on a Tuesday morning due to the baby being transverse. Monday night I went into labor and Hubby took me to the hospital with contractions 3 minutes apart. I was not dialating and they decided since I was staying in the hospital that they would try to rippen my cervix. Seven hours later my second Daughter litterly put her foot through the loeft side of my uterus and I tore from the left fallopian tube to the tip of the cervix. She lived three minutes and I spent the next three days in ICU.

My third and last pregnacy I was on complete and total bedrest from the day I found out I was pregnant. The plan was to get me to 36 weeks and deliver by c-section. At 27 weeks I started having contractions and was admitted to the hospital for the duration. At 31 weeks I woke up in severe pain, I was having contractions agoin and later that evening it was discovered that a blood pocket was forming in the scar tissue from the rupture. Little Bits was delivered at 12:02 am weighing 3 lbs 4 oz.

My oldest, when she was expectiong my Grandbaby, was told that as soon as an amio came back that his lungs were fully developed that she would be induced. My oldest is a cardiac patient and it got to the point that the pregnacy was putting too much stress on her heart. SHe wanted to try to deliver naturally, and they allowed her to try. SHe was doing real well. SHe was dialated at 8 when they broke her water, but the cord prolapsed and they delivered my Grandson by c-section

[Panacea]

I am going to weigh in with my own experience.

My first pregnacy<snip>. After 36 hours of labor, my first Daughter was born by c-section. She had the cord wrapped around her neck, under her arm and around her neck again.

My second pregnacy I was scheduled for a c-section on a Tuesday morning due to the baby being transverse. <snip> Seven hours later my second Daughter litterly put her foot through the loeft side of my uterus and I tore from the left fallopian tube to the tip of the cervix. She lived three minutes and I spent the next three days in ICU.

My third and last pregnacy I was on complete and total bedrest <snip> later that evening it was discovered that a blood pocket was forming in the scar tissue from the rupture. Little Bits was delivered at 12:02 am weighing 3 lbs 4 oz.

My oldest, <snip>is a cardiac patient and it got to the point that the pregnacy was putting too much stress on her heart. SHe wanted to try to deliver naturally, and they allowed her to try. SHe was doing real well. SHe was dialated at 8 when they broke her water, but the cord prolapsed and they delivered my Grandson by c-section

Wow You've just about every worst nightmare come to life.

Cord wrapped around the neck is called a nuchal cord. If the cord is compressed, fetal perfusion is impaired and it can cause problems for the delivery.

Tranverse positions (basically baby sits sideways in the uterus) are incompatible with labor. If the baby does not turn into either a breech (sometimes can deliver vaginally) or a cephalic (head down) position, a c-section always has to be done.

I'm surprised you kept your uterus after a rupture. Most women would have lost it. I'm so sorry about the loss, and the struggles with Lil Bits.

When the cord prolapses, it dangles ahead of the baby into the vagina, and sometimes protruding outside of it. It is a true medical emergency and requires immediate surgery to save the baby.

[Sleepwalker]

Homeopathy does not work. To say something works, and in the same breath say that there is no evidence for it working is astounding.

Homeopathy is snake oil. Acupuncture is snake oil. They do not have evidence for them working despite studies- they do not even have a proposed mechanism by which they are to achieve results.

The Lamaze page recommends enemas, nipple teasing and homeopathy over medical induction. It is woo.To split hairs by saying people are saying things that aren't true, but not lying, and acupuncture totally works, but there is no evidence for it, is dancing around the conclusion that there is no evidence for supporting these practices over induction.

My statement regarding stillbirths: to expand, a 38 week old infant is safer outside the womb than in it, and a number of ways in which said term infant can die or be injured are also injurious to the mother. Therefore, earlier delivery is better than later, ie 38 weeks instead of 43. It is quite true that there are any number of conditions that can make the mother and infant more susceptible to harm during a pitocin induction- however, there are more ways than one to get an infant out of the womb in a medical setting, and there are interventions for side effects from the intervention. Gestating/laboring outside of a medical setting carries an array of risks without the possibility of medical intervention.

Medical intervention for a heart attack can kill or maim the patient. It is safer for a patient to have a heart attack in a hospital than at home. These two statements do not conflict.

[Boozy]

Some of the information on the homeopathic methods of labor induction are actually well known to work (orgasm, nipple stimulation, and acupuncture).

Nitpick: None of these things are homeopathy. Homeopathy refers specifically to the theory that water has memory. Many people use the term homeopathy to refer to all alternative medicines and treatments, but that is incorrect.

Homeopathy is one of the most patently idiotic theories that's ever become popular, and I would trust no website that even suggests it as an option. No one who has done an ounce of research would recommend such nonsense.

[fireheart17]

Homeopathy does not work. To say something works, and in the same breath say that there is no evidence for it working is astounding.

Homeopathy is snake oil. Acupuncture is snake oil. They do not have evidence for them working despite studies- they do not even have a proposed mechanism by which they are to achieve results.

OK, I think everyone's getting confused on the actual definition of homeopathy and alternative methods to induce labor.

Homeopathy is basically the idea that water has memory.

The other methods that have been mentioned (sex, stimulating nipples etc.) DO have some credit to them.

Nipple stimulation produces oxytocin naturally (hence why some women have reported having an orgasm during breastfeeding, because when the infant sucks, it's realising oxytocin into her bloodstream). Oxytocin helps the uterus to contract after labor. So there is SOME credit behind a couple of the methods.


Also just because something has had a LACK of research, does not necessarily mean that it doesn't work. There has been research conducted into the effects of homeopathy and it's been discovered to be ineffective. Any positive results towards homeopathy have been attributed to a number of factors-placebo effect, change in environment or similar around the time of the visit, being weaned off of a medication that was causing the problem in the first place etc. NOT because someone basically drank expensive water.

Homeopathic remedy=some guy decided to sell some incredibly expensive water which has been claimed to have had "memory". People pay through the nose for it, people discover that they can also get rich this way and it takes off.

"natural" induction methods=there is some medical reasoning behind it, whether it works is still in question.

[Beckpatton]

I'd just like to point out that with my original post I was not saying that inducing labour should never be an option, of course there are times where it is medically necessary, and the risks of waiting far outweigh the risks of inducing.

My aunt had to be induced when her waters broke, but she didn't start contractions. Even then they gave her a good 12 hours to start naturally. In the end she had my cousin another 12 hours after the drugs, both were fine.

I was only pointing out what I think is a ridiculous practice of inducing purely for convenience. Not just doctor patient busy schedules convenience, but "Doctor it's Christmas/Easter/Superbowl/a wedding so I want to induce ahead of schedule so I can enjoy myself!"

Sometimes I wonder if their reason is that they want to drink guilt free at said special occasion, cos God forbid they go a few more weeks without alcohol!

[Panacea]

Homeopathy does not work. To say something works, and in the same breath say that there is no evidence for it working is astounding.

Homeopathy is snake oil. Acupuncture is snake oil. They do not have evidence for them working despite studies- they do not even have a proposed mechanism by which they are to achieve results.

The Lamaze page recommends enemas, nipple teasing and homeopathy over medical induction.

My statement regarding stillbirths: to expand, a 38 week old infant is safer outside the womb than in it, Gestating/laboring outside of a medical setting carries an array of risks without the possibility of medical intervention.

Yet again, you refuse to provide sources to back up your claims. Here are mine:

Williams Obstetrics, the GOLD standard in OB care.
Gilbert, E.S. (2007). Manual of High Risk Pregnancy and Delivery, 4th ed. St. Louis, MO: Mosby. The GOLD standard for nurse practitioners.

Neither of these sources back up your statements about induction. Gilbert talks about alternative practices and cites the evidence based research that has already been done of the topic.

I'll give you an example of an alternative practice that has solid evidence based research behind it: moxibustion. Basically, you burn incense next to the big toe. It works to correct a non-cephalic (usually breech) presentation. A meta-analysis published in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology (the journal of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists or ACOG) shows moxibustion is safe and effective, as is accupuncture in correcting non-cephalic presentations. Here's a link to the abstract in PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19733275.

The Lamaze page does NOT recommend any alternative practice OVER pharmacological induction. You have completely taken what they said out of context. Here's what they actually said:

"Lamaze International recommends that you neither choose induction nor agree to be induced unless there is a true medical reason." They go on to discuss natural methods of encouraging and speeding up a natural labor that can help women cope with its discomforts, which include moving, changing position, and sitting in a tub: all well known non-pharmacological methods of pain control I've helped students use successful in labor management . . . and that are used on patients who are also choosing to be induced.

What Lamaze is saying is they don't recommend inducing at 38 weeks. They recommend the mother wait for the body to go into labor when it is ready . . . and they are RIGHT to do so.

Put up or shut up, Sleepwalker! You've made a lot of claims and been asked by several people, including me, for citations. Cite your source!

Nitpick: None of these things are homeopathy. Homeopathy refers specifically to the theory that water has memory. Many people use the term homeopathy to refer to all alternative medicines and treatments, but that is incorrect.

I beg your pardon. You are correct. The term is often used interchangeably with allopathy and naturopathy. To avoid confusion, I will strive to use the term alternative therapy or alternative medicine.

[Rapscallion]

http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/a-kind-of-magic/ is a good article by a doctor on the subject of homeopathy. He's also (more recently) said in that blog that if it works via placebo, even if the patient knows it's a placebo, then a cure is a cure. I couldn't find that entry, not without getting bored looking. Generally a good read, but I've read it all before.

Rapscallion

[Panacea]

http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/a-kind-of-magic/ is a good article by a doctor on the subject of homeopathy. He's also (more recently) said in that blog that if it works via placebo, even if the patient knows it's a placebo, then a cure is a cure. I couldn't find that entry, not without getting bored looking. Generally a good read, but I've read it all before.

Rapscallion

It really all depends on what we mean by homeopathy, as pointed out it may not mean what even providers think it means.

And Dr. Goldacre is correct that many alternative medicines, particularly in the arena of herbal remedies either work no better than placebo, don't work at all, or if they do work have side effects and interactions with modern pharmaceuticals that can be quite unhealthy.

People should not take an herbal remedy because it's "natural." Any way you look at it you are putting a substance into your body that is not normally there. They should take it because they understand the therapeutic benefits and risks. In many cases, a safer modern pharmaceutical is available. For example, I would not bother with willowbark tea when all I have to do is reach for a bottle of aspirin.

However, modern medicine has developed and is developing still more treatments and cures from natural substances and folk cures.

This doesn't mean the public should abandon modern medicines. Quite the reverse.

There are two problems with the placebo effect. 1) it's not considered ethical to give a patient a placebo, even if he knows it is a placebo. 2) we haven't taken the time to understand how the placebo effect really works. So we're missing a potentially great method for helping patients because we consider it a disadvantage rather than an advantage.

All of which is neither here nor there.

My point being that while many alternative practices do not stand up to scientific scrutiny, some do. All should be rigorously researched before being dismissed by the scientific community OR embraced by the general public.

[fireheart17]

My point being that while many alternative practices do not stand up to scientific scrutiny, some do. All should be rigorously researched before being dismissed by the scientific community OR embraced by the general public.

I think your quote can be summed up in one sentence:

http://www.youtube.com/user/stormmov.../2/V9bT73BM2Ic

(from 30 seconds in).

[blas87]

Perhaps one day we can birth a baby in space and see if the difference in gravity and weight has any bearing on the experience?

[Panacea]

I think your quote can be summed up in one sentence:

http://www.youtube.com/user/stormmov.../2/V9bT73BM2Ic

(from 30 seconds in).

Very funny Strictly speaking true. One of the reasons people turn to alternative medicine is because they are looking for alternatives to modern medicine; either because "real" medicine doesn't have the answer they're looking for, or a mistrust of doctors (which is sometimes well deserved).

Of course, modern medicine loves to paint alternative medicine as a bunch of crackpots, even though these alternatives sometimes end up becoming "mainstream."

Perhaps one day we can birth a baby in space and see if the difference in gravity and weight has any bearing on the experience?

I think weightlessness would actually make labor more difficult. You see, gravity can play a role in childbirth if using the birthing chair position.

Otherwise, though, weightlessness of the fetus would not help labor. The delivery of a baby is accomplished by uterine contractions that literally force the baby out. These muscles are among the strongest in the body; so strong even a paralyzed woman can have a natural childbirth (and it's been done).

Bear in mind also, there is no weight in space, only mass. And the mass of the fetus would not change.

I would not want to have a pregnancy in that environment, however. Low gravity environments lead to demineralization of bone and muscle atrophy. A baby born in such an environment, if it could survive the pregnancy, would not be able to survive in an Earth normal gravity.

Returning astronauts who've spent months in space have to contend with these problems.

[BlaqueKatt]

Acupuncture is snake oil. They do not have evidence for them working despite studies- they do not even have a proposed mechanism by which they are to achieve results.

science disagrees with you, and would like a word

Nanna Goldman from the University of Rochester Medical Center claims to have found a biological explanation for the pain-relieving effects of acupuncture. She worked with mice that had inflamed paws, and managed to alleviate their pain by using a needle to pierce a traditional acupuncture point near the knee. This painkilling effect only happened when she rotated the needles after insertion.

This effect depended on a chemical called adenosine, which typically surges in concentration after any stress or injury. Adenosine works by docking at a protein called the adenosine A1 receptor, which has well established roles in suppressing pain and is found on neurons that transmit pain signals. Indeed, other chemicals that stimulated this protein had the same pain-relieving effects as acupuncture. Drugs that prevent the body from breaking down adenosine led to even more potent pain relief. And mice that lacked the A1 receptor altogether experienced no pain relief from the needles.

sorry mice don't understand "placebo effect"

[wolfie]

Sometimes I wonder if their reason is that they want to drink guilt free at said special occasion, cos God forbid they go a few more weeks without alcohol!

Everything that can cause birth defects has a "window" during which the vulnerability exists. For example, folic acid deficiency affects the formation of the spinal cord. Once the cord is formed, becoming deficient won't cause problems, and correcting a deficiency won't fix them. It's a particularly nasty cause of birth defects because its "window" is so early (before the first missed period, when a woman probably doesn't know that she's pregnant).

In the last few weeks, the "window" for alcohol has closed.

[Panacea]

Everything that can cause birth defects has a "window" during which the vulnerability exists. For example, folic acid deficiency affects the formation of the spinal cord. Once the cord is formed, becoming deficient won't cause problems, and correcting a deficiency won't fix them. It's a particularly nasty cause of birth defects because its "window" is so early (before the first missed period, when a woman probably doesn't know that she's pregnant).

In the last few weeks, the "window" for alcohol has closed.

Some terotogens, including alcohol, can have negative effects through the entire pregnancy. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is an example; the brain does most of its development in the last trimester. The spinal cord is another matter; the folic acid issue usually does occur earlier.

The first 8 weeks is the most vulnerable period for the fetus in regards to exposure to teratogens. Unfortunatley, by the time many women figure out they are pregnant, the damage is already done.

That's why in pre-conception counseling, the ideal is for the woman to be living a healthy life style BEFORE she ever gets pregnant.

BTW, you'd be amazed how many of my students get that issue wrong on my OB exams, even though I spell it out for them in class